============================================================== Guild: Antares Development Initiative Channel: ADI Gateway Cooperative / agc-general ============================================================== [08-Oct-24 02:06 PM] archielvahr#0000 Hi everyone, this new channel replaces our old gateway thread. Previous discussion can be found in this thread: https://discord.com/channels/1183243037430796339/1283881894966202469 {Reactions} 👍 (3) 🎉 (3) [08-Oct-24 02:49 PM] pi3142718#0000 Question: how would the addition of a new gateway pair to the co-op interact with the shares? Are everyone’s shares reduced? [08-Oct-24 02:56 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah my thought is that each gateway under the ADI umbrella falls into the same pool, and the shares are diluted by more resources being added to the pool. [08-Oct-24 03:20 PM] archielvahr#0000 I could be convinced otherwise, but the idea here is that it wouldn't necessarily dilute your income, x% of 2 gateways vs. (x/2)% of 4 gateways. And it theoretically simplifies distributions- tracking one large list vs. multiple small lists. Also adding more gateways to the network should have a very ✨ synergistic ✨ effect, so everyone wins when another gateway is added to the network. It also makes it easier for continual gateway production, which offers stability to producers. [08-Oct-24 05:21 PM] archielvahr#0000 (pinned) oh one other thing to share for new folks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=0#gid=0 Various gateway calculations are in the various sheets of that workbook. {Embed} https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=0 ADI Gateway Co-op https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/cdeeI79pWyq8UPayN431Hpv-_KSRujYuHFa2KMP19EQ/https/lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docs/AHkbwyIRNkkeAgQagbobnO7PA1eRRW3V6TtOj-B5Qdqlu6F-IT_hSySPC0UBf2FGmQ6aQPLL871iUOe47nrYBXEPbjy6djp4BHGZ22fCUmW2tCk3zA9FXdE_%3Dw1200-h630-p [08-Oct-24 05:22 PM] archielvahr#0000 I think there's a decent consensus that a typical gateway in the program is going to have 1 volume upgrade and 3 distance upgrades, which brings them up to the max of 25 parsecs. There are some gateway plans which have shorter links, so that's fine, of course. [08-Oct-24 05:23 PM] archielvahr#0000 (pinned) Realbandit has done excellent work with this survey: Link to Poll: https://forms.gle/hsDQk45RSP6nBGyY6 Link to Results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/191JLKbIy1gf7uBthBSIGk-RayQWgK68ajob6P2ZeN5o/viewanalytics [08-Oct-24 06:17 PM] hernanduer#0000 share dilution makes the most sense to me [08-Oct-24 06:17 PM] hernanduer#0000 perhaps there should be a "staging" though, where your shares aren't applied to to the total until the gateway that generated those shares is completed {Reactions} 👍 [08-Oct-24 06:18 PM] hernanduer#0000 only a single or small group of people will be able to actually contribute to a gateway, so it should be easy enough to keep track of who has contributed what [08-Oct-24 06:19 PM] hernanduer#0000 I think a single share for the cheapest item would make sense to me, then add decimal multiples from there [08-Oct-24 06:21 PM] hernanduer#0000 and maybe a minimal contribution value? I'm up in the air on that, I don't think many people would only contribute a single thing [08-Oct-24 06:21 PM] hernanduer#0000 looks like the 5k SEA would be the minimal contribution mat, so 1 SEA = 1 share, then multiply out from there [08-Oct-24 06:22 PM] jcheung#0000 Will share values be decided at the time of contribution, at gateway completion, at each payout, or some other metric? [08-Oct-24 06:24 PM] hernanduer#0000 probably best to have an agreed on value list that changes rarely. Any contribution would result in an amount of "staged" shares immediately, and then those shares are folded into the total number of shares of the co-op once the gateway is completed [08-Oct-24 06:25 PM] jcheung#0000 So like a list of like, 1 share = 5k SEA, 1 share = 100 LDE (arbitrary numbers) etc? [08-Oct-24 06:27 PM] realbandit#0000 Just noting that 1 SEA is worth ~110 credits, and you'll end up with literally tens of millions of shares, not sure if that would end up being a problem or not. [08-Oct-24 06:28 PM] hernanduer#0000 I was thinking more 1 SEA = 1 share, but it does have that ^ consequence [08-Oct-24 06:28 PM] hernanduer#0000 it's all in excel though so not sure if it matters 😄 [08-Oct-24 06:30 PM] jcheung#0000 Well, if you do share = SEA how many shares would like LDE be [08-Oct-24 06:34 PM] hernanduer#0000 hmmm there might need to be some math involved here [08-Oct-24 06:34 PM] hernanduer#0000 ideally we'd have something like BAd + employment costs factored in for each part [08-Oct-24 06:35 PM] hernanduer#0000 let me draw something up [08-Oct-24 06:47 PM] jcheung#0000 Could do like... Whatever the most expensive thing is, one unit is one share. Everything else is based off that, with fractional shares. Any share value less than 1 is ignored during payout. Though then that comes with two problems, how much of one material is equal in value to another... and what jappens if something has a significant price shift [08-Oct-24 06:54 PM] hernanduer#0000 problem with fractions is rounding [08-Oct-24 06:54 PM] hernanduer#0000 decimals never play well with computers [08-Oct-24 06:55 PM] hernanduer#0000 I have some numbers though - based on a sell value of SEA of 120, a BAd of SEA of .548, and a consumption cost of SEA of 27.186 [08-Oct-24 06:55 PM] hernanduer#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1293361140306411571/image.png?ex=6814b2ad&is=6813612d&hm=abe4af9a50625ce77214953e17534c4eecffcbccd50e9c9e1ce05a642ffa007f& [08-Oct-24 06:56 PM] hernanduer#0000 so we take the ratio of the sell that goes to consumption cost (which is anything related to upkeep like RAT, FIM, DW, COF, etc.) against the sell price, and assume that as the ratio of BAd's "value" to the consumption cost "value" [08-Oct-24 06:56 PM] hernanduer#0000 the bottom right shows a share's value is assigned 23% from consumption cost of an item, and the other 77% is from the BAd it takes to build that item [08-Oct-24 06:57 PM] hernanduer#0000 so an LDE in this case would be 67.352 shares each [08-Oct-24 06:59 PM] razenpok#0000 What's BAd? [08-Oct-24 07:06 PM] sidepipe#0000 base area days - how many of something can you make per one base area per day [08-Oct-24 07:20 PM] hernanduer#0000 including ALL input products, recursively [08-Oct-24 07:25 PM] hernanduer#0000 SST and GWS probably need to be broken down into constituents, and then share values applied to the later stages of their production. I think given the size of the GWS they can only be built by the contracted builder, so it would make sense to split contributions to a GWS' construction up in stages [08-Oct-24 07:26 PM] hernanduer#0000 it's easy to apply a share value to those stages as well, with the math I am already using here [09-Oct-24 01:18 AM] rek7137#0000 Regarding shares, what if we did something along the line of 1 Gateway = 1000 shares. New shares are distributed upon the commissioning of the new Gateway, and we use whatever chosen metric (BA-d, CX, etc.) to correlate material & cash contributions amongst those 1000 shares. This also makes it significantly easier to adjust with inflation, as we never need to recalculate previous shares - just add 1000 to the pool every time a new Gate comes online. {Reactions} 👍 [09-Oct-24 02:05 AM] rek7137#0000 Also, I noticed in those linked Co-op rules, it mentions that "Anyone in ANT" can join. What defines "in ANT" - is it 1+ bases in ANT space, is it that the Gateway must be built in ANT space, etc.? Whilst yes it could be harder to maintain control of Gateways outside of ANT space, I believe enough people have bases spread around the galaxy that there isn't much point to that restriction. Especially as the majority of Gateways won't actually be in ANT space itself. As an interesting data-point: the current Governor of Montem (Anxuiz) has a ton of bases in ANT space, so it is actually reasonable that the Co-op could exert influence there - especially if you allow MOR-centric members. [09-Oct-24 02:23 AM] realharvey#0000 Basically anyone can join the Project. "Anyone in ANT" was used, because the Gateway wouldnt be of much use for you if you are not in ANT at all. [09-Oct-24 02:25 AM] realharvey#0000 ADI is based in ANT. Having an ANT based cooperative building gateways in other regions doesn't sound very logical. {Reactions} 👆 [09-Oct-24 02:41 AM] evov#0000 It makes sense - that people who primarily operate in the ANT region - would primarily be focused on gateways getting placed. . . in the ANT region. [09-Oct-24 08:27 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 The concept of shares, is just a matter of how the records will be kept. Share dilution could be an issue, since the most seemingly "profitable, or returnable, and cheapest" route plan, is between 2 CXs. Should any COGC based planet route be deemed necessary and built, well then you'll have a larger investment pool, which would then be cutting into the proceeds from the likely initial CX routes, potentially before "term". The value of these "shares" is a different thing. In order for shares to be transferred between players, with a form of discretion... How would be they be valuated? If it's just per the share value estimates, then it'll be just a debt transfer. My true question relates to the potential long-term nature of it. If "share" repayment goes beyond the inherent items of "principal + interest", now we're talking about revenue structures: ```(Gateway route revenue per month - Gateway route fuel costs per month) * (1 - Prun Inflation rates) / Shares issued == A Monthly gateway share value, beyond "principal+interest" term.``` Do we then continue gateway to gateway "subsidy" payments to the next project, tender it as a "mature" financial commodity, or slash transit fees, to then allow the project to matriculate as a public good? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfSIC8jwbQs A good byway, into RL/historical topics, which also convincingly names Boucher's GOV, by name, being "The Water Board" in the in-game chat. {Embed} Tom Scott https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfSIC8jwbQs The centuries-old debt that's still paying interest In the archives of Yale University, there's a 367-year-old bond from the water authority of Lekdijk Bovendams, in the Netherlands. And it's still paying interest. Thanks to: Prof. Geert Rouwenhorst for his time and explanation All the team at the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Michelle Martin https://www.youtube.com/@OnTheCrux for ed... https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/9ePaitKATNC2tO8i99hkHj4hbxFmufnPVXh3dRHgMwk/https/i.ytimg.com/vi/cfSIC8jwbQs/maxresdefault.jpg [09-Oct-24 08:33 AM] hernanduer#0000 we're talking about a risky and slow return investment, I think leaving tolls in place in perpetuity makes sense [09-Oct-24 08:34 AM] hernanduer#0000 I have also thought about dilution from the most profitable routes. In theory it wouldn't matter since the most of the same people are providing the goods, but the revenue share value of each individual share will go down because (in theory) later gates will generate less money [09-Oct-24 08:34 AM] hernanduer#0000 lots of theory there [09-Oct-24 08:34 AM] hernanduer#0000 it's something we'd have to agree upon [09-Oct-24 08:35 AM] hernanduer#0000 alternatives are a lot more paperwork and can make things confusing - I find it a lot simpler saying "I own 5k shares of the co-op and that justifies me to 2% of profit" [09-Oct-24 08:36 AM] hernanduer#0000 rather than "I own 2400 shares of that gateway, 2200 of that one, 2201.125 of that one and so I get 4%, 1%, and 3% of them respectively" and then someone has to do all that accounting {Reactions} 💯 👆 [09-Oct-24 08:38 AM] hernanduer#0000 I'm still not sure I understand why we would choose arbitrary values at the top, you're still gonna have lots of decimal shares, and the smaller that peak value the more likely there's a rounded decimal somewhere and someone gets screwed over [09-Oct-24 08:38 AM] hernanduer#0000 that's why I figure you choose the smallest item instead, and 1 SEA is the smallest contribution [09-Oct-24 08:40 AM] hernanduer#0000 also there's not really any gateway-to-gateway share inflation here, small jiggles in the amounts maybe from consumption price changes but I wouldn't expect anything drastic [09-Oct-24 08:43 AM] hernanduer#0000 right now a gateway totals about 1.87mil shares in my calculations [09-Oct-24 08:50 AM] razenpok#0000 Is it reasonable to calculate shares in BAd once, and reuse the amount for the future gateways? [09-Oct-24 08:54 AM] hernanduer#0000 if we do it only by BAd, unless recipes change that shouldn't change [09-Oct-24 08:54 AM] hernanduer#0000 but BAd is only based on inputs - not worker costs or repair costs of the buildings [09-Oct-24 08:55 AM] hernanduer#0000 those two variables are accounted for by consumption cost [09-Oct-24 09:52 AM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah, you and @rek7137 both have good points. I think the coop model only benefits from more players. Initially my expectation is that this particular group is focusing on the gateways in ANT space specifically. But it raises the questions- once we finish the ANT gateways, they really need the other gateways to be most valuable. So _would_ the ADI be interested in finishing and owning the gateways further in adjacent areas too? It would be a bummer if Hortus just never got it together to finish their gates, and we couldn't get all the way to the CX. If this program moves towards making gateways in other regions, then we definitely need to bring in a lot of partners in each region to hold the gateways under the program. [09-Oct-24 09:52 AM] archielvahr#0000 It sounds like there's a bit of a consensus that we're focusing in ANT, which is totally fine with me [09-Oct-24 09:54 AM] archielvahr#0000 Regarding: "later gates will generate less money" I think this is only true if 1) We're picking the best gates first and then decide to add marginal gates later and 2) The synergistic effects are low. I think if we have one link, we might get X ships per day, but two links increases the utility so much we'll have 2.5*X ships per day through both links. (which is also speculation 😄 ) {Reactions} 👍 [09-Oct-24 09:57 AM] archielvahr#0000 Personally I don't have a preference for "shares". Either way it's a percentage of the gateway, and we're going to have _very_ fractional numbers no matter how we slice it. And that's fine. If people find "shares" either fun or conceptually easier, I'm all for it. [09-Oct-24 09:57 AM] razenpok#0000 > So would the ADI be interested in finishing and owning the gateways further in adjacent areas too? If they fly the Antares flag then absolutely yes 🫡 {Reactions} 😁 (2) [09-Oct-24 10:00 AM] archielvahr#0000 It would be a good reminder to the other regions of Antares superiority! {Reactions} 💯 [09-Oct-24 10:26 AM] realharvey#0000 Someone once Said Hortus is just Western Antares. Which makes no sense but I still like that saying. 😂 {Reactions} 🤣 👍 [09-Oct-24 10:26 AM] jvaler#0000 Pinned a message. [09-Oct-24 10:26 AM] jvaler#0000 Pinned a message. [09-Oct-24 10:26 AM] jvaler#0000 i first heard that from rise lmao it's 100% true [09-Oct-24 10:28 AM] laaxus#0000 We're just manifesting some Destiny in hortus [09-Oct-24 11:22 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Hortus just really isn't that big. There's very little, to no Shipbuilding done there. You've got HRT system; Boucher, Lemuria, and Nova Honshu to the south, there's a few minor production COGCs just around Boucher; Berthier/Adalina to the North. Most of these COGCs and Planet naming around Hortus, are due to the Perlin/random noise distributions that the devs used to generate this verse iteration. They're few and far in-between, and PD-754 was just the last one to be grabbed, since it has no resource densities whatsoever. Antares is rather nice, since you have like discrete chains of stuff, with each system as you go further on E/S. {Reactions} 👍 [09-Oct-24 07:47 PM] rek7137#0000 Yep, my reasoning for 1000 shares was simply to make it more human-readable. e.g. rather than owning 0.00312 of a Gateway, you own 3.12 shares (milli-Gateways). Can be 100, 1000, 1M, whatever - just a nice round number. In my view it is better to use 'Gateway' as the base unit rather than a material such as SEA - especially as it allows later Gateways to adjust component pricing & donations to any changes in market rates, without having to recalculate for anyone else. Whilst BA-d is quite a fixed value, why not just go straight to what we actually care about - which is the Gateway itself. {Reactions} 👍 [09-Oct-24 08:55 PM] rek7137#0000 Also, from a MOR/SuperNova perspective, we have now locked in our first links: Our plan is to connect MOR to each of Circe (QQ-001b), Kiruna (XH-594b), and Curie (OZ-189c). Kiruna and Curie are both highly populated planets/systems, and are essentially optimal CX<->CX midpoints even when looking only at speed. They will link in well to most of the networks that we have seen discussed. Our plans after these first 6 Gates will depend heavily on how the rest of the galaxy has built out. If it hasn't already, we will probably build another Gate on these mid-points to help link in to BEN & HRT. We definitely want to have a good connection into ANT, but the final route will depend on how/where the ANT-space network builds out. {Reactions} 👍 [10-Oct-24 12:49 AM] doctorwhofr#0000 Just wondeer [10-Oct-24 12:49 AM] doctorwhofr#0000 can i have multiple bases in one planet ? [10-Oct-24 12:58 AM] laaxus#0000 Yes but they're worth less [10-Oct-24 12:59 AM] laaxus#0000 1st permit is 500 area [10-Oct-24 12:59 AM] laaxus#0000 2nd and 3rd : 250 [10-Oct-24 06:44 AM] marat_sh#0000 you expand the area by 250 for existing base up to 1000 total area (3 permits) [10-Oct-24 07:23 AM] evov#0000 This sounds like a more believable approach. Trying to get a collaboration together for a 16 gate network to connect all the CX's seems highly unlikely to succeed in the short term. I think each regional power base will want to develop their respective regions of space in a way that makes the most sense to them. Ultimately any gates in the direction of another CX will still help with CX-CX transport even without the full "ring" being complete. It also makes sense that a Circe-Moria link is more desired for people operating out of MOR than any other link in the proposed CX-CX networks. [10-Oct-24 07:57 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yeah, there's reasons for why I only extended one potential Antares-area COGC routing, in the old thread, all the way down to Boucher and adjacent systems (plus FK-037 and LG-430). Of course you have the potential direct Arclight connection, but that's a separate issue. Having easier long-term access to expansion possibilities is a net positive. Most of those further out systems are less well-populated, for now. For not only the COGC access, additional resource deposits, but also for lower overall build/maintenance costs. Plot crunch is a more real thing in the long-term, than even the HQ permit crunch is. When most players reach a given level of A-fab upgrades, or business complexity, they will likely stop, and search for other means of higher rates of profitable returns, rather than dealing with the upfront costs for paying for the next and more expensive permit, not to mention the ships required, the operational stocks needed to maintain long-term stuff, but also the ship costs, and the administrative time needed daily, or weekly, to keep things going. Like up tiering production tech. But this part is a tangent.. The real issue, when you're going to be dealing with the dozens, to hundreds of new TRIAL/BASIC/PRO accounts who will be matriculating into the mid-end game, within the next 1-2 years, is that they will be looking, at least I hope, into the new opportunities for better production/sales that these gateways might provide: - 2-3 mil AIC for a LCB/WCB STL ship, to then ferry stuff back to someplace else, that require MCG/SEA maintenance costs. - 5-7 mil AIC for a FTL ship, to then ferry stuff back and forth, with bases that require INS/HSE/TSH/PSH maintenance costs. The first, "gateway facilitated" expansion options offer easier access to company development, while hitting the over ANT economy less hard.. The second will be cutting into the production realities, that the gateways will be eating from as well, affecting ANT prices and money velocity. [10-Oct-24 08:13 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Lets see.. Of the 38 or so new arrivals to say Verdant, since September 1st, only 11 of them were BASIC/PRO. The TRIALs are ostensibly locked into a x2 500t/m3 shipping limit, forever, however they might be fairly interested, over the long term, in not only being able to reach systems, based off STL fuel, and gateway-synergy (since their FTL drives have a definite parsec limit, due to their limited fuel bays), but also in the higher-tier production processes which definitely cut down on shipping requirements, while giving out potentially better revenues per week. So if they find what is to their liking, they will likely be using the gateways, and settle more-so on the more outer worlds. The BASIC have their own limitations. BASICs can field x2 max cargo ships, around the clock, but they also could field additional max cargo STLs, be able to participate in a good amount of association projects (if not currently), and have more available permits, provided that they do their upgrades wisely, and generally plan out/test their strategy. True #PROs will just be given an open field to do whatever they want. I think we all know at least these things... But both stream into this final thing, being my actual argument. [10-Oct-24 08:26 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 There is a real information asymmetry at play, that generally helps to mold player decisions over the long-term. Some of you might have noticed this in the Q/A sessions that some have had in the more communal/lounge channels here. Others might have noticed this in their DMs when catering to the needs of their business partners.... Not everyone is entirely apt regarding making sense out of the whole barrage of metrics that say Prun-planner gives you, nor do they actually realise such things, until about a week, or a few, when actually implementing any business plan of theirs. Some of the public/private production associations help to supply actual needs; others help to drive down the FIO material cost data points. Both are probably doing the same thing anyways. But you're missing out on the opportunity, to mould the operational decisions of a very large group of players (BASIC/TRIALs), who are likely doing things randomly, without much forethought behind it. **Maybe a whole whopping list, of ANT-area, five-star base designs at given COGCs, presented somewhere, could help with some of these issues** You can easily get such marketing material through those Prunplanner shared bases, with permalinks. Instead of asking for people to get involved, and guiding them through various concerns, you now have whole shopping list, of pre-vetted options, that will not only help to guide the larger mass of player behaviour down the road, but it'll be rather easy to snippet any questions which might arise from them. It's a partial public/private benefit atm, since if people notice, you may get results on the CX, or in association production metrics rather soon-ish... It'll help later, when you can point people to new COGC possibilities, made easily available by a brand new and operational gateway route. [10-Oct-24 08:29 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 https://tenor.com/view/word-salad-gif-19184266 {Embed} https://tenor.com/view/word-salad-gif-19184266 https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/COojdST9WOYXqZaJYTqYmsJt50qUIJtiQos1K4dDGyE/https/media.tenor.com/2cEA_Bg9EfYAAAAe/word-salad.png [10-Oct-24 08:30 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 mmm, word salads. It's all that Ascaron does, other than providing RATs and DWs on all CX markets. [10-Oct-24 08:32 AM] evov#0000 So, the tldr is - You believe there's a lot of players that are either restricted by pro/basic differecnes, or restricted by lack of information/knowledge. And you think that gateways can be used as a tool to help communicate to these players what/where to build stuff? [10-Oct-24 09:05 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 The gateways will likely open up possibilities for people to do what's already at COGCs of interest, particularly where gateways may be placed. You can do marketing for that anytime, regarding current means and methods. But the placement of gateways could influence long-term company development, and transit proceeds, through time. There's a whole rump of players who won't be using pre-built STLs for gateways, as is, but could use the gateways themselves for transit, to otherwise unreachable places, like Kinza - you need upgraded fuel tanks to reach there via FTL as is, from MOR. Boucher from ANT is another possibility. It's a one way burn on standard FTL tanks, without you carrying more FF in your cargo bay. [10-Oct-24 09:22 AM] evov#0000 I agree, large FTL tanks are the better choice if you're uncertain of what the ship might be used for. But I gotta admit, I still don't understand what you're trying to suggest about gateways. I feel like, there's still a number of unresolved issues. 1. Funding 2. Securing Ownership 3. Location of gates. ( I think the strong and clear declaration from Rek of the plans around Moria should make it easier to narrow down the choices for the first couple ANT based gates ) 4. Production capacity - there's a lot of fairly niche parts that are unlikely to be covered by existing production capacity. At some point it probably makes sense to get an idea of how many people are planning to produce these different parts. [10-Oct-24 09:30 AM] evov#0000 I'm pretty sure everyone is in agreement, that the first Antares based gateway link will be between ... 1 planet in the ANT CX system, and somewhere else. So if we can start there, and work through the problems available, it'll be much easier to close the loop on the remaining unknowns. So.... EoS Bober Hephaestus Astraeus ZV-307f ZV-307g ZV-307h Phobos Lets see if we can get a consensus on where the ANT link should start? I think whatever ends up closest to the CX makes the most sense.... thoughts? {Reactions} 👍 (2) [10-Oct-24 09:33 AM] marat_sh#0000 I vote for Hephaestus or EoS. (Hephaestus high traffic, some parts need to be made on site or new cargo / EoS closer to CX) [10-Oct-24 09:36 AM] marat_sh#0000 Since it's also needs to be connected to other system... EoS <-> 1.Griffonstone/2.Elon/3.Norwick/4.Harmonia [10-Oct-24 09:38 AM] archielvahr#0000 Eos is closest to the CX, Heph is also very close but has more actual on-planet traffic. So yep, either of those. [10-Oct-24 10:09 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 [10-Oct-24 10:10 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 This should to help speed things up. [10-Oct-24 10:12 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 As for gateway targets, there's a good list of them. The link-up with Rek's MOR area plans can be had at LS-231 <--> XH-594 (Kiruna/Libertas/Cortez)... [10-Oct-24 10:15 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 [10-Oct-24 10:16 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 That's the whole distribution, of reachable targets, via ZV-307, with max parsec radius. Anything else shall require more gateways, off-site from ZV-307. [10-Oct-24 10:19 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 People should be dropping down notes on the gateway sheet, for material/money contributions, should they be asked for, then the gateway update drops. [10-Oct-24 10:21 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Ownership? Anyone who is participating in this project, and who has a base on given target planets of interest, should start to get into those governments, if you'd like to. Forcing down votes in functional governments, will be very disruptive, especially when the stuff comes out of the blue. [10-Oct-24 10:22 AM] jcheung#0000 Anything within two system jumps seems silly {Reactions} 💯 (4) 👍 (2) [10-Oct-24 10:25 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Silly? Maybe. No way to get STLs built on Hephaestos, to be working anywhere between systems. If you want the ANT <--> BEN route first, vote for the LS-231. Any current and working FTLs can just jump directly to all of those anyways. Else it's whatever floats your boat, since we're no longer talking of CX Gateway routes, but rather COGC routes between planets in ANT, and the CX. [10-Oct-24 10:25 AM] tanda#0000 Deimos and Vulcan are not starters I think. They are already insanely close [10-Oct-24 10:31 AM] laaxus#0000 why is deimos vulcan in that list [10-Oct-24 10:39 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 They're all within 25.0 parsecs of ANT CX. They're all options for now or later. Those polls are for 24 hours, to get an idea of what everyone here would like to do, as the first gateway. It's a messy process... [10-Oct-24 10:40 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 What if we all choose LS-231 as the destination? Well the next choice is either XH-594 (Rek's people), or UV-351 (BEN CX); Or just leave it as a half-finished route, and go for some ANT-area planet instead. [10-Oct-24 11:02 AM] jcheung#0000 (pinned) just going to bring this over and pin it... https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/map/ {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1293966919962988634/image.png?ex=6814ec9a&is=68139b1a&hm=daedbee84524393a92bb60d33c174adbd2c4ca46035cdb07a74ef7f07afabab9& [10-Oct-24 11:02 AM] jcheung#0000 Pinned a message. [10-Oct-24 11:23 AM] jcheung#0000 okay excuse my poor paint skills. didn't feel like stitching together maps right now. so yellow is locked in MOR gates. orange is ANT, dark orange is proposed in poll. i'm also missing a few days of convo so if i missed something discussed, please let me know [10-Oct-24 11:24 AM] jcheung#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1293972411150241852/Untitled.png?ex=6814f1b7&is=6813a037&hm=89cbc34697711838ea6de8d1296327dc5f6449f5af3a766ecb38322c3207757f& [10-Oct-24 11:26 AM] jcheung#0000 in my opinion, these should not be even considered with one of the endpoints at the CX {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1293972944334360619/image.png?ex=6814f236&is=6813a0b6&hm=b03bf2e6dad1c99a906943aba9d61b4a364a67bd0644e513757bcfb40dc67c44& {Reactions} 💯 (2) [10-Oct-24 11:27 AM] jcheung#0000 with the remaining, of the choices provided these basically all lead up into BEN. are we focusing only on BEN? also how many pairs are we planning? [10-Oct-24 11:32 AM] jcheung#0000 okay. i sit corrected. 603 can link directly to HRT, and 231 can link to both BEN and the MOR chain [10-Oct-24 12:20 PM] kynadre#0000 ~~is LS-746 out of range of Benton, or is there nothing else of value in the LS- constellation that distance has been the main factor it is undeveloped?~~ [10-Oct-24 12:20 PM] kynadre#0000 ~~I was just thinking since LS-746 is more central to LS, that helps the area be a bit more of a hub in addition to branching towards Benton~~ [10-Oct-24 12:20 PM] kynadre#0000 but LS-231 also does a good job of being central in LS constellation, tbh, plus it's already developed [10-Oct-24 12:21 PM] kynadre#0000 apologies for thinking out loud a bit [10-Oct-24 12:21 PM] kynadre#0000 Visuals solidly help; thank you [10-Oct-24 12:25 PM] jcheung#0000 note that the map is for jumps more than physical distance {Reactions} 👍 [10-Oct-24 12:26 PM] jcheung#0000 as it is a 3d universe, some things on the map that are "farther" apart can be closer in AU [10-Oct-24 12:27 PM] jcheung#0000 anyhow. to address your lined out question, 746 is out of range of 594, the MOR link [10-Oct-24 12:28 PM] jcheung#0000 it's also just simply less developed [10-Oct-24 12:28 PM] jcheung#0000 there might be other factors why Roh didn't add it to the list [10-Oct-24 12:29 PM] jcheung#0000 that being said, i personally don't think level of development should be a major factor for these gates {Reactions} 👍 [10-Oct-24 12:32 PM] kynadre#0000 I see now, the map being just connections not necessarily AU, but as I looked more closely at connections in that constellation, LS-231 connects just as well as 746 would, but is as you said more appropriately in range + on normal travel path [10-Oct-24 12:33 PM] kynadre#0000 Thanks for patience with me talking to myself 😄 [10-Oct-24 12:40 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah that map is optimized for readable connectivity, but weighted to be approimately equal to their "true" positions. For "true" positions, use the in-game map, but it's pretty hard to understand connectivity there, so it's better to click around on the web map usually. {Reactions} 👍 [10-Oct-24 12:41 PM] jcheung#0000 on the "real" map it looks like this {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1293991725270044794/image.png?ex=681503b4&is=6813b234&hm=310b5e89577f4b710e7cfbde724f4645506ee9174836b308ee9b6cf9a6566e62& [10-Oct-24 12:41 PM] jcheung#0000 but it's.... not fun to read [10-Oct-24 12:41 PM] archielvahr#0000 We have a new response: {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1293991877456166912/image.png?ex=681503d8&is=6813b258&hm=5d98a0ccfa9389b557ec38577142f9fe01b51d3943d77d833f1aa94f2b98c0e1& {Reactions} 🤔 (3) [10-Oct-24 12:42 PM] jcheung#0000 side by side {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1293992014043676722/Untitled.png?ex=681503f9&is=6813b279&hm=857d5de175a3a95e443d5ded28b283de8acd91c8f5c10cc1687278a5d8bfd8c3& [10-Oct-24 12:42 PM] archielvahr#0000 I think a lot of the sheets @realbandit had put together were premised on the notion that a shorter gateway link would be "better". This suggests that longer gateways are more valuable since the savings becomes larger with longer links. {Reactions} 👍 (3) [10-Oct-24 12:42 PM] jcheung#0000 fixed time means we want some long links then {Reactions} 💯 (2) [10-Oct-24 12:42 PM] jcheung#0000 i wonder what the fuel cost will be like [10-Oct-24 12:43 PM] realharvey#0000 we have a lot of people here interested. I am always for go big or go home [10-Oct-24 12:44 PM] jcheung#0000 but given that info we should probably prioritize either super long links along commonly traveled areas, or shorter links that bridge gaps like this {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1293992541359964220/image.png?ex=68150477&is=6813b2f7&hm=cb0c305a49247b19605829f58e6a42f8792153452bcbe0060e441f7a613389ee& {Reactions} 👍 [10-Oct-24 12:44 PM] jcheung#0000 (random exmple) [10-Oct-24 12:45 PM] jcheung#0000 can we go big AND go home? i'd like to just have the gate in my garage... {Reactions} 🤣 (2) [10-Oct-24 12:45 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yeah I plugged in all possibilities from a "starting" position of ZV-307. ANT planets on that list don't make very much sense, if we're looking to stage not only a "statement" of regional coordination and association, but also the FIRST route option. Lets say we plop down ZV-307 <--> LS-231... And then somehow manage to coerce Benten people into guaranteeing a UV-351 <--> LS-231 connection, or something similar with XH-594... Give it a few months, we turn over revenues to the shareholding parties.... Maybe we finish off the principal + interest repayment, for then original shareholders to have subsequent re-investment options... Will there be even more interest in helping to fund more AGC gateways? Will there be more STL shipbuilding to make use of an original CX <--> CX gateway... Could they be used in other places? If so, which ones? [10-Oct-24 12:45 PM] archielvahr#0000 I would personally be enthusiastic about that link 😄 [10-Oct-24 12:45 PM] jcheung#0000 that said it's still over 20 parsecs, that random link i drew 😂 [10-Oct-24 12:46 PM] archielvahr#0000 But yeah, I think number of jumps saved per gateway link is a very valuable metric. {Reactions} 💯 [10-Oct-24 12:47 PM] jcheung#0000 from the start that was my only thought [10-Oct-24 12:47 PM] jcheung#0000 which was why one of my first questions was physical distance, or distance along jump lines 😄 [10-Oct-24 12:48 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Tonnage delivered is also a metric. If you wanted to build to KI-401, you're still looking at an Aceland/Elon gate, which will do double-duty for COGC related shipments.... These things should be considerations for the future, not "now". [10-Oct-24 12:48 PM] jcheung#0000 Pinned a message. [10-Oct-24 12:48 PM] jcheung#0000 Pinned a message. [10-Oct-24 12:48 PM] jcheung#0000 Pinned a message. [10-Oct-24 12:50 PM] jcheung#0000 that assumes only STL though. you could easily bridge aceland and 401 [10-Oct-24 12:50 PM] jcheung#0000 which is a single FTL jump [10-Oct-24 12:50 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Without test-server gate fuel use metrics, I have to assume STL. [10-Oct-24 12:50 PM] jcheung#0000 why must you [10-Oct-24 12:50 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 When we get more data... We shall see if it's better than just jumping direct from station. [10-Oct-24 12:51 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Cuz that'll give indication of how OP the devs want the gateways to be. [10-Oct-24 12:51 PM] jcheung#0000 sure but why only look at STL ships [10-Oct-24 12:53 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Build x2 STL ships, for the price of one FTL ship... Without gateways, STLs are limited in scope. With them they can go wherever there is a route. I'm wanting to see the the fuel use metrics, so that transit fees can be calculated, to be cheaper than FF - FTL costs, but still confer enough min-maxing consensus, for gateway useage to be a viable thing for most players shipping along that corridor. [10-Oct-24 12:53 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Hence, more revenues for gateway partnership. [10-Oct-24 12:54 PM] jcheung#0000 i sincerely doubt that focusing only on STL serviceable routes would be financially reasonable [10-Oct-24 12:54 PM] jcheung#0000 but we'll see more when it releases [10-Oct-24 12:54 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Give it time. This is a very risky endeavor, with lots of unknowns. [10-Oct-24 12:54 PM] archielvahr#0000 I like the idea of "gateway jumper" ship, but practically most people are still going to need FTL ships for most of their bases, they started with FTL ships, and it just makes sense to continue to make FTL ships going foward because they are more versatile and can also use the gates {Reactions} 👍 [10-Oct-24 12:55 PM] jcheung#0000 i also like the idea, but i feel like it would be insanely cost prohibitive [10-Oct-24 12:55 PM] jcheung#0000 what's the projected cost of a gate pair again? [10-Oct-24 12:56 PM] .shiva.#0000 ~800M [10-Oct-24 12:56 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yeah I agree on that too... But give it... 2-3 years.... More gateway routes open. More PRO players then decide... Hey If I want to service this base... I'll just need another cheaper STL to do it, since the Gateways are up, and the prices for transit are fair!. I don't need to since x2 that amount for an FTL ship, since I need my velocity of money to continue to be re-applied to more permits/projects. [10-Oct-24 12:56 PM] archielvahr#0000 Pair for $597,697,414.93, 3 distance upgrades, 1 volume upgrade [10-Oct-24 12:56 PM] archielvahr#0000 +/- maybe 10% depending on your prices and rarity of the new ore [10-Oct-24 12:57 PM] jcheung#0000 right, so STL-only routes can be considered in like a year [10-Oct-24 12:57 PM] jcheung#0000 maybe two years [10-Oct-24 12:57 PM] jcheung#0000 it's completly unreasonable to start with STL-only routes {Reactions} 👍 [10-Oct-24 12:57 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 mhmm; my polls are not time-dependent... You'll see the same options in 2-3 years from now pop up, if our project is successful. [10-Oct-24 12:58 PM] .shiva.#0000 Cross that bridge when you get to it, not 3 years in advance [10-Oct-24 12:58 PM] jcheung#0000 ^^ [10-Oct-24 12:59 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Hey, you'll be getting at least 32k t/m3 of cross ANT/BEN CX traffic, when that route is immediately established from me, alone. [10-Oct-24 12:59 PM] .shiva.#0000 Capacity upgrade not needed? [10-Oct-24 12:59 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Need fuel use metrics. [10-Oct-24 01:00 PM] jcheung#0000 capacity i think was tbd later [10-Oct-24 01:00 PM] .shiva.#0000 May as well do it later I guess yeah [10-Oct-24 01:00 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Can always do later... Not that expensive either, as compared to just a default gate. [10-Oct-24 01:01 PM] archielvahr#0000 It's hard to know. I think we'd be in a very good situation if we hit 200 flights per day. We have no numbers, but my expectation is that it'd be a lot lower than that. [10-Oct-24 01:02 PM] .shiva.#0000 Yeah, capacity seems like the stat that's most annoying. Frustrating if you're 201, but doesn't matter otherwise [10-Oct-24 01:02 PM] archielvahr#0000 If we hit the cap in the first week, we can pivot and add a capacity upgrade quick. It's only like 12m more [10-Oct-24 01:06 PM] jcheung#0000 also slightly off topic, i don't know if this was brought up for a possible ANT > HRT link, but... ZV 759 > PD 175 is 24 parsecs. 1 jump to ANT, 2 jumps to HRT.... which is still 3 jumps compared to some other options like ANT > PD 754/518 / UB 282... but it brings a potential single red H producer basically next door to one of our fuel COCG planets (759e) for a STL link (looking at you Roh) [10-Oct-24 01:08 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 we have fuel COGC planets? [10-Oct-24 01:08 PM] jcheung#0000 at least one [10-Oct-24 01:08 PM] jcheung#0000 the one at 759 isn't close to the sun though [10-Oct-24 01:10 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 To include VCB FTL traffic, you'd need to include the Volume Upgrade IIs... We've only earmarked the Upgrade I's from consensus. [10-Oct-24 01:10 PM] jcheung#0000 fair. could do LCB H transfer too [10-Oct-24 01:10 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 "Don't be hauling HE/H over the gateways, please?" [10-Oct-24 01:11 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 The new Krypton gas is WCB specific.... The new + old Refined fuels (like everything else) is LCB specific. [10-Oct-24 01:11 PM] jcheung#0000 i thought FF was WCB [10-Oct-24 01:11 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 nope? [10-Oct-24 01:11 PM] jcheung#0000 yeah. FF itself is WCB ratio [10-Oct-24 01:12 PM] jcheung#0000 5:1 w:v [10-Oct-24 01:12 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 ohh shit it is [10-Oct-24 01:12 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I must not haul alot of it XD [10-Oct-24 01:14 PM] jcheung#0000 but still, 3 LCBs hauling H through one gate transit is probably going to be faster than 2 VCBs hauling it from..... 5 jumps out from 401? [10-Oct-24 01:16 PM] jcheung#0000 especially if this particular gate pair were basically for inter-CX transit, the gates could be put out in the sticks for their respective systems since most of the CX traffic will be FTL [10-Oct-24 01:16 PM] jcheung#0000 that being said [10-Oct-24 01:17 PM] jcheung#0000 the fuel planet is.... dying it looks like [10-Oct-24 01:17 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Plop the idea into the ADI sheet... so it's not lost with all of this chatter? A good option... We'll get to it eventually, since we have priorities of establishing a baseline product. [10-Oct-24 01:17 PM] jcheung#0000 where is route suggestions in the sheet [10-Oct-24 01:18 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 just add your own. [10-Oct-24 01:19 PM] jcheung#0000 hope someone doesn't get mad at me 😄 {Reactions} 👍 [10-Oct-24 01:20 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Never. [10-Oct-24 01:20 PM] jcheung#0000 ~~that's false, people get mad at me all the time~~ [10-Oct-24 01:23 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 You've got personalities, here and everywhere. Y'all need to interact, otherwise you'll end up with the same b's, like on the APEX Global Chat COMG... Lots of randomness everywhere, and no one really knows who they're dealing with (since many people play PRUN like it's a solo game --- lots of nerves wracked, for no good reason). [10-Oct-24 01:45 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 And these gateways will be bringing in permutations into the landscape of meta-stuff.... (factorials in other words [3! == 3x2x1 == 6 possibilities)... Even for an ANT <--> HRT route, we've got PD-754, via LS-231, or via ZV-759, or via LS-300, or via IA-603, or SE-110, and that's just mentioning the ANT side of things... MOR/BEN corps probably will have their own designated points of entry into PD-754, like XH-594, XH-400, KW-688, or OZ-189. All of those can have their own, non-CX gateway routes as well, since most COGC dependencies, are set in-stone with I/Os from one COGC to another, and those are set by the devs upon universe creation. I'd rather not tread on that. It's just an example to show that whatever group is planning similar things, have rather serious issues as well. [10-Oct-24 01:53 PM] jcheung#0000 is distance upgrade 5 parsec per upgrade? so 10/15/20/25? [10-Oct-24 01:54 PM] realbandit#0000 Nice find! This is some interesting information, if links are indeed made a set time then we can swap our 'distances' for 'number of links' for the 6 CX connections for each design. In which case, slight optimizations for overall length are irrelevent, and we can choose them entirely from the value of the midpoint. It does bring considerable value back to the original plan using PD-754 for the diagonal, as that makes the routes of length 2,2,3,3 and then 3,3 for the diagonals, in comparison to 2,2,2,2 and then 3,3 for the diagonals. So most of the inefficiencies that design brought are removed, and an option to add in 4 more links after to bring it to identical would make it identical to any other design in terms of speed - but saving 1 link in total still. However XH-400 is still a problem as the midpoint for that design, but it does raise it's viability in my opinion. [10-Oct-24 01:54 PM] realbandit#0000 Yes [10-Oct-24 01:59 PM] archielvahr#0000 Correct [10-Oct-24 02:00 PM] jcheung#0000 754 won't work well with MOR gate being at 594 for STL only, but would be fine with FTL [10-Oct-24 02:01 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Or just drop XH-400 entirely... That system looks entirely "depreciated". Prophetar started the buildup at Aratora - LS-231, to be a kingpin for NS production, between, BEN and ANT, but they had to abandon it due to shipping issues. It could to double-duty as a viable COGC site, along with a gateway route intersection, avoiding more troublesome places like XH-400. [10-Oct-24 02:01 PM] jcheung#0000 unless that's done independently of each other [10-Oct-24 02:03 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 With LS-231, you're looking at a regional anchor, to not only permit XH-594, but also PD-754, and with COGC possibilities. [10-Oct-24 02:04 PM] realbandit#0000 Yeah, I'm refering to the old design that was suggested with PD-754 and XH-400 as the only 2 midpoints. It was far slower for most routes using our old assumptions, but this new information changes that significantly. [10-Oct-24 02:04 PM] jcheung#0000 this one yeah? {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1294012766343925874/Screenshot_2024-09-27_at_11.png?ex=6815174d&is=6813c5cd&hm=81f57607a229f09a43c7eca9a6b9e46e0c3895ddbe2c614a1cc55e514266d2e1& [10-Oct-24 02:04 PM] realbandit#0000 yep [10-Oct-24 02:05 PM] jcheung#0000 BEN > ANT would need its own links anyways [10-Oct-24 02:05 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Dead system {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1294012948607533127/Screenshot_from_2024-10-10_14-05-15.png?ex=68151778&is=6813c5f8&hm=b29b575faa8d40d4cde01c2a0b7a60d5c27119ce4b211677e097960e6ebb127f& [10-Oct-24 02:05 PM] realbandit#0000 I created this version of it too: {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1294012978340827147/image.png?ex=6815177f&is=6813c5ff&hm=1820280b2e83e5a9be773bcca062a7def514e2662602982da16416ae9ce5deff& [10-Oct-24 02:05 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Permits + ADMs will be required. [10-Oct-24 02:05 PM] realbandit#0000 Precisely why we'd rather avoid it 😉 [10-Oct-24 02:05 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yes. [10-Oct-24 02:05 PM] jcheung#0000 like perhaps ZV-759 > KW-358 [10-Oct-24 02:06 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 what is at Kw-358? [10-Oct-24 02:06 PM] realbandit#0000 Better shows the actual route, and the blue lines would be the later links to make it identical (using all Links as set time to travel) to any other design. [10-Oct-24 02:06 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I'm trying to work in COGC synergies, so that we can have viable options for not only productivity, but also for political office (which will be required for transit fee payouts --- its complex :/) [10-Oct-24 02:07 PM] jcheung#0000 as a FTL option for ANT > BEN think highways rather than teleporter {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1294013482823454732/image.png?ex=681517f7&is=6813c677&hm=74db4a4da76e89ca7281123870adfc47a8ee65cac2446076585b5119d3ac2b4e& [10-Oct-24 02:09 PM] realbandit#0000 The good news is that we can use the optimal midpoints design to get OZ-189, XH-594 and LS-300 as the midpoints. Would normally be far slower, but it creates the 2,2,2,2,3,3 links that we need. And the ANT<>HRT spot just has to reach both LS-300 and OZ-189, but there weren't any popular midpoints there before anyway to worry about. [10-Oct-24 02:09 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah I think it's helpfult to know the sum of the distances of the FTL jumps, to know the savings there, just not to compare gateway lengths. So it's valuable information. We know FTL ship jump durations are proportional to length... so we can use that to know how much time we are saving with a gateway link: {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1294013859899772980/image.png?ex=68151851&is=6813c6d1&hm=1d8501d063cecc3a3f91416f5d6e94c4d15820a982683efe67896a736cf9d485& {Reactions} 👍 (2) [10-Oct-24 02:10 PM] realbandit#0000 Most of our tests have compared it to FTL - though that was mainly for seeing which gates to build first to save the most initially, it's less useful for a completed CX link, only for branching routes at that point. [10-Oct-24 02:10 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 LS-300 does not work with XH-594.. LS-231 does. [10-Oct-24 02:11 PM] realbandit#0000 The ANT<>MOR connection would go through the south west [10-Oct-24 02:11 PM] realbandit#0000 Slower, but that doesn't matter if a link is a set time. [10-Oct-24 02:11 PM] realbandit#0000 But thats why the regular design has to use LS-231 instead of LS-300 [10-Oct-24 02:12 PM] realbandit#0000 Both were popular, but 300 does edge out 231, so this just makes that easier to justify [10-Oct-24 02:16 PM] archielvahr#0000 System pop of LS-300 is 152,000, LS-231 has just under 9000 workers. They are near each other so they both have value. LS-231 is closer to Etherwind as an interm travel point that is popular among antarens [10-Oct-24 02:17 PM] realbandit#0000 yeah, it was surprising to me that many people voted 231 too [10-Oct-24 02:17 PM] archielvahr#0000 I think most of the major proposals in ANT are a tie for me 🤷‍♂️ [10-Oct-24 02:17 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Geography determines strategy... [10-Oct-24 02:19 PM] realbandit#0000 It did, but the new info changes that drasticallly [10-Oct-24 02:19 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Not only in economics, but also military strategy (if ever implemented in Prun). You get natural efficiencies, with the best choices for hosting large-scale transportation. If you're on the sea, you benefit from cheap seaport possibilities, if you have natural harbors... If you're on flat lands, you can easily install railways, without too much financial discomfort. [10-Oct-24 02:25 PM] realbandit#0000 Not sure what you're getting at with that, but that was entirely how we were working at the routes before, weighing up midpoints, total lengths, costs, etc. The main discussion here is about if the devs implement this set time to travel a link, which negates several of those factors and makes it a whole lot simpler to decide. [10-Oct-24 02:29 PM] jcheung#0000 i voted there because of the options in the poll it was the only one that linked with the proposed MOR gate [10-Oct-24 02:30 PM] jcheung#0000 so for me it was between 603 and 231 [10-Oct-24 02:30 PM] realbandit#0000 ? ANT<>MOR can go either north or south, and south is actually faster mostly [10-Oct-24 02:30 PM] jcheung#0000 603 being a HRT link [10-Oct-24 02:30 PM] realbandit#0000 The midpoints question was just that, about that midpoints specifically [10-Oct-24 02:31 PM] jcheung#0000 given the constraints of only the options of the poll, 231 was the only one to connect to the proposed MOR network terminating at 594 https://discord.com/channels/1183243037430796339/1293249484418977852/1293753660815310859 [10-Oct-24 02:32 PM] jcheung#0000 or are we on two different convos [10-Oct-24 02:32 PM] realbandit#0000 Well I guess I need to have phrased that question better than lol alright though, makes sense [10-Oct-24 02:33 PM] realbandit#0000 The poll was created with no set route in mind, so LS-300 could have connected via XH-400, if say LS-300 and XH-400 both got 30 votes, and XH-594 and LS-231 got none. [10-Oct-24 02:34 PM] jcheung#0000 i was also going off the assumption that 400 was off the table since 549 was 'locked in' [10-Oct-24 02:36 PM] realbandit#0000 594 was only just 'locked in' for us now, that poll was created weeks ago [10-Oct-24 02:37 PM] realbandit#0000 The responses to the poll are what made us decide to 'lock' 594 in [10-Oct-24 02:38 PM] jcheung#0000 ...are we talking about the same poll? 🤔 i wonder if we're talking about the same thing. i was talking about the one Roh posted earlier today [10-Oct-24 02:39 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 You just answered your own query. Mathematically based efficiencies will denote the most efficient branches of any gateway network... They will also point out what's ideal, but will not necessary point out what's enforceable, like with the option of XH-400... How many of you have bases on XH-400? I'm guessing no one. We're striving for not only the ideal (least gateways required), but also what's most enforceable (most COGCs in-between anything, ensuring some sort of overlap, for GOV control of gateways, since people would like the most "efficient" COGCs to plant bases on, and thus provide political votes). [10-Oct-24 02:39 PM] realbandit#0000 well... yep that explains it I'm talking about the poll I posted, so not the same one at all then haha [10-Oct-24 02:39 PM] jcheung#0000 https://tenor.com/39bL.gif {Embed} https://tenor.com/view/suicide-bathroom-girl-suicide-false-suicide-bathroom-gif-13342623 https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/5xIi_QHvAuiyRUPD3UOCg6Lzbav1bzemoqXiyBLltFg/https/media.tenor.com/i-xarRZLC-cAAAAe/suicide-bathroom-girl.png [10-Oct-24 02:39 PM] realbandit#0000 ? [10-Oct-24 02:40 PM] realbandit#0000 All good then haha, my mistake for not clarifying, I only skimmed the chat here just before [10-Oct-24 02:40 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Im trying to clarify the most that I can --- Roh's language --- terse as always. [10-Oct-24 02:40 PM] jcheung#0000 it also doesn't help that all the votes on the poll i'm talking about lined up just enough with yours for said confusion {Reactions} 😆 [10-Oct-24 02:41 PM] realbandit#0000 Mine got 8 for 231 and 12 for 300, what did that poll reach? [10-Oct-24 02:41 PM] jcheung#0000 1 for 300 5 for 231 over last 5 hrs [10-Oct-24 02:41 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 The polls are for consensus building.... If most people would like a gateway to say Aceland, versus LS-231... Then we'd need to talk more about it, yes? [10-Oct-24 02:41 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I'm not a project coordinator here. 😛 [10-Oct-24 02:42 PM] realbandit#0000 I'm well aware of all this, having been the one who created that poll, and one of the designers of tools to help us find those said optimal routes. [10-Oct-24 02:43 PM] realbandit#0000 hmm, now thats interesting. That would make more sense to be based off of the 594 results then - though the south-west route is still viable via PD-518, I'd have to check distances, but if we use the new dev info that won't matter, as long as it's 3 links [10-Oct-24 02:45 PM] jcheung#0000 this one i don't think was linked to anything else and if i'm being honest, looked like Roh throwing a bunch of marbles on a map and picking whatever system the marbles landed close to [10-Oct-24 02:45 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 My marbles aren't time dependent... [10-Oct-24 02:45 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 In 5 years, sure, you'll see those marbles again. [10-Oct-24 02:47 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I myself would like a tangible product... ANT <--> BEN is like 1 bil AIC... Anything else confers at least x3 as much, when you do the subsequent votings for who would like what, where, and when... We should like a minimally viable product, though, which is a CX route, to/from ANT. 4 gates max. [10-Oct-24 02:57 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 My math is very subtle. You've got 7 project coordinators here... 2 server boosters, and 51 project members. Should say everyone give a random polling answer, the stuff will be all over the place --- this is sort of the point; if everyone here would have like 1 bil in materials to donate, you'd have gateways all over the place, contributing to each person's particular interest... But you/we don't have such things on-call right now. Shoot for the easiest target being a CX <--> CX route, or shoot elsewhere. Everything elsewhere has an eventual material multiplier of 2+... Of course, if few vote, or if few have inclination to reach/contribute to the "lowest-hanging-fruit", this should be an indication for more discussion, debate, or whatnot. [10-Oct-24 03:00 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Evov called for an address of his concerns, if they not be another person's issues, stemming from the month's long banter from the previous thread. We can either "hit the nail on the head" or not, and just diddle for the next few months, with little to no direction, and just "weight" our options. [10-Oct-24 03:04 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 We've got plenty of time now -- best not to waste it. Discord isn't the best tool for these things, but it's what we have. Hammer out a consensus --- you do it with new-bros asking in the ADI lobby, and elsewhere... Why not here? [10-Oct-24 03:04 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Ohh right.... **feelings - uwu** [10-Oct-24 03:08 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 **omg Archiel and fwends, I totally like all of this discussion, regarding the gateways and stuff, but I'm kinda undecided, and I don't want to contribute anything towards ANT based gateway developments..... But I leik totally have better ideas on what you should do with this idea...** [10-Oct-24 03:09 PM] realharvey#0000 hey please watch your tone. [10-Oct-24 03:09 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I'm in character. 😛 [10-Oct-24 03:11 PM] realharvey#0000 You are getting discussions heated up for no reason. We have a lot of people with a lot of ideas. And in addition to that not everyone has enough time to dedicate a perfect plan. We dont need to rush things or decisions. Gateways wont run away. [10-Oct-24 03:11 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 K. [10-Oct-24 03:14 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Peeps should list those ideas, somewhere on the ADI sheet though. These discord convos tend to run-away. Who knows if anyone will be able to search for a specific message, 2 weeks from now, and be able to find it. [10-Oct-24 03:15 PM] realharvey#0000 No one stops you from writing that stuff down and bring it up when it's time to discuss it [10-Oct-24 03:16 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 ^ [10-Oct-24 08:00 PM] archielvahr#0000 One thought regarding shares is that not every gateway we create will have the same materials or cost. So if I put, for example, 1000 shares per gateway, then contributions per gateway would be unequal. We'll likely end up making some gateways with 3 distance upgrades and some with 2. I could normalize the shares based on the "standard" 3 distance, 1 volume gateway. That would work fine, but be aware none of the numbers (including total share count) will be a round number. I'm fine with that though. [10-Oct-24 08:05 PM] jcheung#0000 You could split it into shares for base, shares for each upgrade type [10-Oct-24 08:27 PM] archielvahr#0000 Do you mean different classes of shares? [10-Oct-24 08:33 PM] jcheung#0000 For some arbitrary numbers Base gate 1000 shares Distance upgrade 100 shares Capacity upgrade 75 shares So gate with 3 distance one capacity would be 1375 total shares {Reactions} 👍 (2) [10-Oct-24 08:34 PM] jcheung#0000 (Assuming d1 and d3 are same cost to upgrade ofc) [10-Oct-24 08:35 PM] jcheung#0000 That way you don't have to worry about the shares between a distance 2 and 3 gate being skewed in favor of one [10-Oct-24 08:36 PM] jcheung#0000 Can also apply that to gate usage fees, base + upgrades + fuel cost [10-Oct-24 08:44 PM] realbandit#0000 Your idea is good, should allow shares to be tracked easily. Numbers are listed on Gateway Tiers in the co-op sheet, but each cost increases over the last, so total upgrade cost ends up at 1, 3, 6, 10, 15x the price of the 1st level. So following the 1000, 100 and 75 scale, the Distance 3 and Capacity 1 Gate would be 1675 shares in total. [10-Oct-24 10:24 PM] hernanduer#0000 that's not fair with actual costs though [10-Oct-24 10:26 PM] hernanduer#0000 also it still results in fractional shares [10-Oct-24 10:26 PM] hernanduer#0000 so I don't really understand about picking nice even values [10-Oct-24 10:26 PM] hernanduer#0000 it's a numbers game, some BIG numbers shouldn't scare you 😄 [10-Oct-24 10:27 PM] tanda#0000 0.00015293 shares of a gateway definitely is going to be keeping me awake tonight [10-Oct-24 11:00 PM] jcheung#0000 so what would you propose that has no fractional shares? [10-Oct-24 11:00 PM] jcheung#0000 because i don't think it's possible [10-Oct-24 11:01 PM] hernanduer#0000 ah I didn't mean to imply I have a solution to that [10-Oct-24 11:01 PM] hernanduer#0000 but rather we should avoid very small fractions [10-Oct-24 11:01 PM] jcheung#0000 unless you assign one share per credit, of the material and lock that in, you have fractional [10-Oct-24 11:01 PM] hernanduer#0000 computers don't do them very well [10-Oct-24 11:01 PM] jcheung#0000 the way to avoid very small fractions would be to make each gate worth more shares [10-Oct-24 11:02 PM] hernanduer#0000 that's why I recommend starting with 1 share as the smallest single material contribution [10-Oct-24 11:02 PM] hernanduer#0000 that's exactly what I was saying earlier [10-Oct-24 11:02 PM] jcheung#0000 computers don't handle very large numbers well either though [10-Oct-24 11:02 PM] hernanduer#0000 aah but very large to a computer is a lot bigger than what we're talking about [10-Oct-24 11:03 PM] jcheung#0000 right, you said 1 SEA = 1 share yeah? how many shares is 1 RDE worth [10-Oct-24 11:03 PM] hernanduer#0000 I posted a picture... let me find it [10-Oct-24 11:03 PM] hernanduer#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1294148422894485626/image.png?ex=6814ece4&is=68139b64&hm=89cee539189dddd4c44682fbec083539e8bd1cfa98a33154bd5619ffc557766c& [10-Oct-24 11:03 PM] hernanduer#0000 179.94 shares [10-Oct-24 11:05 PM] jcheung#0000 the limit between a very large and very small number should be about the same number of characters unless i misunderstand things horribly [10-Oct-24 11:06 PM] hernanduer#0000 nah the way numbers work is by significant digits [10-Oct-24 11:06 PM] hernanduer#0000 so a typical 32 bit number gives you 7 significant digits [10-Oct-24 11:06 PM] hernanduer#0000 if a gateway is 1500 shares and someone has 102.5423 shares, they've reached the limit of significands [10-Oct-24 11:07 PM] hernanduer#0000 any fractional share after that will disappear basically - I'd rather we actually just round off shares once owned [10-Oct-24 11:07 PM] hernanduer#0000 so they're all ints [10-Oct-24 11:08 PM] hernanduer#0000 say you provide 50 RDE at 179.94 shares = 8997 (okay bad example), say 49 shares instead it'll be 8817.06 [10-Oct-24 11:08 PM] hernanduer#0000 but round it down to 8817 [10-Oct-24 11:08 PM] hernanduer#0000 that way they're always tracked exactly, and when we have 10 gateways under management and the numbers are getting quite a lot of significands, it won't matter because they're ints [10-Oct-24 11:09 PM] jcheung#0000 first of all, your image above has decimals extending past ten-thousandths [10-Oct-24 11:09 PM] hernanduer#0000 also this is all in excel/sheets, which is notorious for rounding numbers badly [10-Oct-24 11:09 PM] jcheung#0000 so why would it just 'vanish' [10-Oct-24 11:09 PM] hernanduer#0000 okay well let's say it's 1500 instead, right? let's look at what that looks like [10-Oct-24 11:10 PM] jcheung#0000 where would the "excess" go? [10-Oct-24 11:10 PM] hernanduer#0000 no where, it's all totaled together so the excess is just cut off [10-Oct-24 11:11 PM] jcheung#0000 right [10-Oct-24 11:11 PM] hernanduer#0000 over time it'd average out for any person making multiple contirbutiosn [10-Oct-24 11:11 PM] hernanduer#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1294150327414685786/image.png?ex=6814eeaa&is=68139d2a&hm=a41909b7ef5423904fc1867d94e38f68f48575736461dda5cb38788bf8284532& [10-Oct-24 11:11 PM] jcheung#0000 so if all the player shares add up to 9993 out of 10000 what happens to the extra 7 shares [10-Oct-24 11:11 PM] hernanduer#0000 the column on the right is the same share scheme scaled down to 1500 shares [10-Oct-24 11:11 PM] hernanduer#0000 .000801 share [10-Oct-24 11:12 PM] jcheung#0000 you're rounding by choice [10-Oct-24 11:12 PM] hernanduer#0000 my point is more that the number is very small [10-Oct-24 11:12 PM] hernanduer#0000 what is the benefit of that? [10-Oct-24 11:12 PM] hernanduer#0000 and the total adjusts down to 9993 [10-Oct-24 11:13 PM] hernanduer#0000 the total is a running amount - not some set figure [10-Oct-24 11:13 PM] hernanduer#0000 I picture there being a ledger, the contribution, and the shares given for that contribution [10-Oct-24 11:13 PM] hernanduer#0000 then tolls are dolled out by a percent of that contribution over all active shares [10-Oct-24 11:14 PM] hernanduer#0000 the "total" number of shares is a moving value [10-Oct-24 11:15 PM] jcheung#0000 okay. sure. even if we say that a gate total share is in the millions... you still have very small numbers [10-Oct-24 11:15 PM] hernanduer#0000 well not really [10-Oct-24 11:15 PM] jcheung#0000 well yes really [10-Oct-24 11:15 PM] hernanduer#0000 so aggressive [10-Oct-24 11:15 PM] jcheung#0000 let's say you use the numbers as is [10-Oct-24 11:16 PM] hernanduer#0000 the fractions can go really far [10-Oct-24 11:16 PM] jcheung#0000 with 1.8m shares [10-Oct-24 11:16 PM] hernanduer#0000 but that number isn't small [10-Oct-24 11:16 PM] jcheung#0000 5k SEA is .00267308063 payout [10-Oct-24 11:16 PM] jcheung#0000 it's still .00267308063 of the payout even at 1.5k shares [10-Oct-24 11:16 PM] hernanduer#0000 as a percent? yeah the percent doesn't change, but you track the shares not percents [10-Oct-24 11:16 PM] hernanduer#0000 the coop has more than 1 gate [10-Oct-24 11:17 PM] hernanduer#0000 so per gate the percent might not change [10-Oct-24 11:17 PM] jcheung#0000 so you're fine with tracking 11 decimal digits for one number but not for another? [10-Oct-24 11:17 PM] hernanduer#0000 but if you have two gates, percent is now half [10-Oct-24 11:17 PM] hernanduer#0000 no because you don't track the percents, I just said that [10-Oct-24 11:17 PM] jcheung#0000 well you said that computers can't handle very small numbers [10-Oct-24 11:18 PM] hernanduer#0000 the more significant digits the more muddled it gets, yeah [10-Oct-24 11:18 PM] hernanduer#0000 they start approximating [10-Oct-24 11:18 PM] jcheung#0000 the only approximation i've seen with small numbers has been you choosing a cutoff and applying it [10-Oct-24 11:18 PM] archielvahr#0000 I'm sort of catching up here, I think we should do 100 AIC = 1 Share (or 1 or 1000, whatever) [10-Oct-24 11:19 PM] archielvahr#0000 also with floating point numbers, it doesn't really matter which side of the decimal point the digits are on, the accuracy is the same [10-Oct-24 11:19 PM] jcheung#0000 that's what i'm saying [10-Oct-24 11:20 PM] hernanduer#0000 well that's why I was talking about dropping them to integer [10-Oct-24 11:20 PM] hernanduer#0000 to do that, you really need the decimals to not be that valuable [10-Oct-24 11:20 PM] jcheung#0000 my only issue with assigning it to credit value is that then each gate is worth a different number of shares [10-Oct-24 11:20 PM] hernanduer#0000 and 1 share = 100AIC is pretty close to 1 share = 1 SEA [10-Oct-24 11:20 PM] hernanduer#0000 funny enough [10-Oct-24 11:20 PM] hernanduer#0000 why shouldn't they be? [10-Oct-24 11:21 PM] hernanduer#0000 the parts are worth different things at different times [10-Oct-24 11:21 PM] jcheung#0000 because the hard material costs are the same for the same design [10-Oct-24 11:21 PM] tanda#0000 Considering AIC costs fluctuate, wouldn't it be better to assign shares based on BAd? [10-Oct-24 11:21 PM] hernanduer#0000 that's what my math does right now, it's about 75% BAd and 25% AIC's current value [10-Oct-24 11:22 PM] jcheung#0000 if you start with, let's up the arbitrary numbers by 3 orders of magnitude to make you happy, 1,000,000 shares for the base gate and then some other fixed values for each upgrade [10-Oct-24 11:23 PM] jcheung#0000 you can then take the materials donated and assign them shares based on the current cost of materials, with total shares equal to whatever the module is-in this case 1m shares for the base module [10-Oct-24 11:24 PM] archielvahr#0000 I agree- I strongly advocate for fixing the prices you are credited for because it's a pretty serious burden to attempt to track the price at he time of contribution is a lost cause. I'd be happy with BAd or a fixed price relative to the CX price. BAd prices don't always reflect the CX price super well. [10-Oct-24 11:24 PM] jcheung#0000 instead of having 1.1m shares for gate 1, then 1.4m shares for gate 2, then 800k shares for gate 3 [10-Oct-24 11:24 PM] jcheung#0000 no matter what though you'll have to still track partial shares [10-Oct-24 11:25 PM] hernanduer#0000 my current calculations of BAd don't include repair or consumption costs [10-Oct-24 11:25 PM] hernanduer#0000 that's why there's the ~25% AIC tracking - it's coming through in those costs [10-Oct-24 11:26 PM] hernanduer#0000 .5 of a share in this scheme is about 60 AIC [10-Oct-24 11:26 PM] hernanduer#0000 you'd never get rounded down more than .5 of a share [10-Oct-24 11:26 PM] hernanduer#0000 I strongly advocate for integer shares [10-Oct-24 11:28 PM] jcheung#0000 that's fine, if you just multiply the arbitrary numbers here by a thousand that gets you close to your share values [10-Oct-24 11:29 PM] archielvahr#0000 So I think this is what @jcheung is advocating for, do I have it correct? [10-Oct-24 11:29 PM] archielvahr#0000 http://kortham.net/temp/firefox_2024-10-10_23-29-01.png {Embed} http://kortham.net/temp/firefox_2024-10-10_23-29-01.png https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/-y4L-FOvIoUaoLLKubOhgiYUnrRta68F4RaH-bCzZng/http/kortham.net/temp/firefox_2024-10-10_23-29-01.png [10-Oct-24 11:29 PM] archielvahr#0000 Sorry, rightmost column is "total shares" [10-Oct-24 11:29 PM] jcheung#0000 something like that. [10-Oct-24 11:31 PM] hernanduer#0000 I'd rather do it by whole part lists [10-Oct-24 11:32 PM] hernanduer#0000 and to facilitate integers, you have to peg the smallest value contributable as 1 [10-Oct-24 11:32 PM] hernanduer#0000 otherwise people get screwed [10-Oct-24 11:32 PM] archielvahr#0000 I think it'll get summed either way and presented to people as a total number [10-Oct-24 11:32 PM] jcheung#0000 it could be a billion for the base module [10-Oct-24 11:32 PM] jcheung#0000 you're still going to have some fractions going on [10-Oct-24 11:33 PM] jcheung#0000 anyways, the framework i propose would be to simply guarantee that each "gate" is worth the same number of total shares [10-Oct-24 11:34 PM] jcheung#0000 and proportional to each other [10-Oct-24 11:34 PM] archielvahr#0000 Non integer version: [10-Oct-24 11:34 PM] archielvahr#0000 http://kortham.net/temp/firefox_2024-10-10_23-34-16.png {Embed} http://kortham.net/temp/firefox_2024-10-10_23-34-16.png https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/qHTEoJ8ohfAO-RP-bYBD_XdPtbYoLkYDrG5SGX7a-Jw/http/kortham.net/temp/firefox_2024-10-10_23-34-16.png [10-Oct-24 11:35 PM] hernanduer#0000 to go against the equal gates thing, think about this: 1 gate is created now, RDE cost is 35000. 1 gate is created in the future, RDE cost is now 50000 [10-Oct-24 11:35 PM] hernanduer#0000 the profits from both gates are equal [10-Oct-24 11:35 PM] hernanduer#0000 the person who contributed that second RDE now must wait significantly longer to recoup their investment? [10-Oct-24 11:35 PM] hernanduer#0000 or I suppose there could be toll inflation [10-Oct-24 11:36 PM] jcheung#0000 so a gate built tomorrow and a gate built 6 months from now are roughly equal in return. so a universe where in 6 months from now the prices have quadruplued doesn't mean with two gates built, the first gate is worth a quarter of the new gate [10-Oct-24 11:36 PM] hernanduer#0000 it does mean the people that contributed to it should only get a quarter of the profits though [10-Oct-24 11:36 PM] hernanduer#0000 imo [10-Oct-24 11:37 PM] archielvahr#0000 That's kind of only a concern if RDE goes way up but the other items don't, for example. If the inflation is even, then they are still getting the same proportion of the shares they'd get before. [10-Oct-24 11:37 PM] hernanduer#0000 well I'm also thinking about the tolls [10-Oct-24 11:37 PM] hernanduer#0000 the tolls would have to go up with inflation [10-Oct-24 11:37 PM] hernanduer#0000 like the inflation has to be accounted for somewhere [10-Oct-24 11:37 PM] hernanduer#0000 either in % of shares or in tolls [10-Oct-24 11:37 PM] hernanduer#0000 (tolls on old gates) [10-Oct-24 11:38 PM] jcheung#0000 so am i. you can apply my framework to tolls as well. toll = base module + additional module + fuel cost [10-Oct-24 11:38 PM] jcheung#0000 and then all the tolls across the universe change together [10-Oct-24 11:38 PM] archielvahr#0000 I think that's fine to assume. Realistically tolls might have to change for non-inflation reasons too. One ofthe risks of entering the gateway coop is that your returns are unknown. They will be proportional to your contributions (as measured by material amount). [10-Oct-24 11:38 PM] jcheung#0000 everything gets more expensive? all the tolls go up simultaneously [10-Oct-24 11:39 PM] archielvahr#0000 The person who contributed 100 RDE today has "paid more" than the person who contributes 100 RDE in the future too, because of the "Time value of RDE" rule {Reactions} 💯 [10-Oct-24 11:39 PM] hernanduer#0000 yeah I think we'd need to encode that inflation into the tolls and I'm fine making them equal [10-Oct-24 11:40 PM] hernanduer#0000 only trouble will be determining the initial values, because like I said, I don't have a BAd calculation including repair and workforce costs as BAd 😅 [10-Oct-24 11:40 PM] hernanduer#0000 BAd 77.35% Consumption 22.66% [10-Oct-24 11:40 PM] hernanduer#0000 that's what the numbers I showed are [10-Oct-24 11:40 PM] jcheung#0000 could make each module a modifier and then every n months you check against the cost to build each component and that's your toll. some fraction of the cost. {Reactions} 👍 [10-Oct-24 11:41 PM] archielvahr#0000 I think if inflation of some goods is uneven, there will be a skew in future gateways, but that's not necessarily awful. Because there's a constant skew in profitability of different products, and I think generally people will accept that and eat the small difference. Usually it's still profitable, just a small relative shift [10-Oct-24 11:41 PM] hernanduer#0000 yeah makes sense [10-Oct-24 11:42 PM] hernanduer#0000 maybe we scale against anticipated traffic too? [10-Oct-24 11:42 PM] jcheung#0000 also i would like to apologize for earlier, i fixated way too hard on decimals and fractional shares {Reactions} 🥰 [10-Oct-24 11:42 PM] hernanduer#0000 I just don't want anyone getting scrwed [10-Oct-24 11:42 PM] jcheung#0000 so like... if a gate only gets 10 trips a day it's cheaper than if it sees 160? [10-Oct-24 11:42 PM] hernanduer#0000 and teeny tiny decimals have a tendency to do that without anyone knowing [10-Oct-24 11:42 PM] hernanduer#0000 I like integers [10-Oct-24 11:43 PM] hernanduer#0000 I round all my floats to integers if possible 😄 [10-Oct-24 11:43 PM] hernanduer#0000 I was thinking inverse, more trips = cheaper [10-Oct-24 11:43 PM] jcheung#0000 🤔 [10-Oct-24 11:43 PM] hernanduer#0000 scale tolls to repayment timelines of some sort [10-Oct-24 11:43 PM] archielvahr#0000 Google seems to suggest sheets uses 64bit floats. [10-Oct-24 11:43 PM] jcheung#0000 hmm [10-Oct-24 11:44 PM] archielvahr#0000 I think it's an interesting question: Do you price the gateway relative to the value it has to customers (like we price SAS software).. or do you price it based on what you think will generate a specific return in a target duration? [10-Oct-24 11:44 PM] jcheung#0000 it could be argued that cheaper if lower traffic could drive more traffic, and taxing higher traffic areas more generates more revenue... but honestly i'm fine either way it goes [10-Oct-24 11:44 PM] hernanduer#0000 yeah I guess it would have to include anticipated returns [10-Oct-24 11:45 PM] archielvahr#0000 Right... gotta draw the demand curve and find the maximum, which maximizes utility for everyone [10-Oct-24 11:45 PM] hernanduer#0000 we'll all be underwriters by the end of this! [10-Oct-24 11:45 PM] jcheung#0000 the other consideration with traffic is if it gets cheaper as more people use the lane, then.... more people will use the gate, and i'm worried about daily gate use saturation [10-Oct-24 11:45 PM] archielvahr#0000 If we hit saturation, I will definitely raise the price. bam, problem solved 😄 [10-Oct-24 11:45 PM] hernanduer#0000 raise price and build a throughput upgrade to recoup it [10-Oct-24 11:45 PM] jcheung#0000 whereas if it gets more expensive the more it's used, near max utilization it'll make people consider alternate routes [10-Oct-24 11:46 PM] jcheung#0000 what if you're at max upgrades [10-Oct-24 11:46 PM] hernanduer#0000 then you only raise price! [10-Oct-24 11:46 PM] jcheung#0000 can't toss another upgrade, and you've made the fares cheaper because more people are using it [10-Oct-24 11:46 PM] jcheung#0000 but then would this price increase be a special exception for one gate? [10-Oct-24 11:47 PM] hernanduer#0000 yeah I figure the gates won't have equal prices anyway if we base it on distance upgrades [10-Oct-24 11:47 PM] hernanduer#0000 some gates won't need all 3 [10-Oct-24 11:47 PM] jcheung#0000 if you do more traffic = more tolls, then this price increase would naturally occur [10-Oct-24 11:48 PM] jcheung#0000 it also allows for self funding of upgrades (if the gate was allowed to keep a portion) [10-Oct-24 11:48 PM] hernanduer#0000 the opposite concern is [10-Oct-24 11:48 PM] hernanduer#0000 you plan a gateway, spend all these resources [10-Oct-24 11:48 PM] hernanduer#0000 and then turns out it's a dud [10-Oct-24 11:48 PM] jcheung#0000 that's fine [10-Oct-24 11:48 PM] hernanduer#0000 and it's the cheapest gateway to use too, because no one uses it [10-Oct-24 11:48 PM] jcheung#0000 you get payouts from all the other gates {Reactions} 💯 [10-Oct-24 11:48 PM] hernanduer#0000 but the few people that do, would pay anything to use that gate [10-Oct-24 11:48 PM] jcheung#0000 the low traffic gates are subsidized by high traffic ones [10-Oct-24 11:49 PM] hernanduer#0000 you miss capturing that potential money as well [10-Oct-24 11:49 PM] jcheung#0000 you miss potential both ways. but you miss more by charging high usage more [10-Oct-24 11:49 PM] jcheung#0000 okay, let me think of some more arbitrary numbers [10-Oct-24 11:49 PM] hernanduer#0000 well you could argue if a path is high use, then it's more likely to stimulate growth [10-Oct-24 11:49 PM] archielvahr#0000 Really hard to know what the demand curve looks like. You can't really survey for it, you can experiment but we don't really have enough data points to fool around and figure it out. [10-Oct-24 11:49 PM] jcheung#0000 let's go back to my 10 trips vs 160 trips [10-Oct-24 11:49 PM] hernanduer#0000 keeping tolls low on a high use path will more likely increase that growth [10-Oct-24 11:50 PM] hernanduer#0000 plus I think the ship pather is gonna do a lot of the work anyways [10-Oct-24 11:50 PM] jcheung#0000 these gates, let's say they're exactly the same, same modules, same everything. hell, let's make them a paired gate and for some reason it sees a lot more one way traffic [10-Oct-24 11:50 PM] hernanduer#0000 people suddenly hit with 30k tolls, haha [10-Oct-24 11:50 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah that's a good reason to keep prices low until traffic increases (which it will because the price was low and people added bases). By the time they add a base they are locked in 😄 [10-Oct-24 11:51 PM] jcheung#0000 let's say that the base fare is 5k/trip, gate can handle 200 transits a period [10-Oct-24 11:51 PM] hernanduer#0000 maybe, but I figure the areas that are low travel are like that for a reason now [10-Oct-24 11:51 PM] hernanduer#0000 so growth would be slower [10-Oct-24 11:51 PM] hernanduer#0000 could be wrong [10-Oct-24 11:51 PM] archielvahr#0000 If "Use Gateways" is on by default in the flight control, 90% of people will use them every time (probably?) {Reactions} 🤔 [10-Oct-24 11:52 PM] archielvahr#0000 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=1901786732#gid=1901786732 column S, not sure what the integer share count model looks like there. (was it integer shares or integer AIC per share?) {Embed} https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=1901786732 ADI Gateway Co-op https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/MHeLPDEJQ6VFK3VVnUZtr_A_X1LssgRpkrnuPlzcTxw/https/lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docs/AHkbwyIYYNfvo2tSJYJgGBEi88CFSEUFQlLZL9nYZxXJPSxG-KKHFq5N5ZVGIfv9oIMuaopvQzyCB5Pkx394sccde88Og717kc_Napjq0OeAMoXe_gy2FqVh%3Dw1200-h630-p [10-Oct-24 11:53 PM] archielvahr#0000 Also probably need to finalize the prices [10-Oct-24 11:53 PM] hernanduer#0000 integer share [10-Oct-24 11:53 PM] hernanduer#0000 since I assume that's what will be in the ledger [10-Oct-24 11:54 PM] archielvahr#0000 I used PP30D_UNIVERSE for the prices there, not BAd, and the SPT/GWS/TRS/SST prices aren't derived with the same type of markup as PP30D commodities have [10-Oct-24 11:55 PM] archielvahr#0000 The new gateway mats can't be stockpiled so if there was a.. like 10% bonus on them, I could see that being beneficial, since they will take more effort to make. - but I could be talked out of that [10-Oct-24 11:55 PM] hernanduer#0000 I priced things like this {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1294161455595388999/image.png?ex=6814f907&is=6813a787&hm=49d4cd7aef510a0e8758719ffbbbf9a21ae9dae6aeee8e9410c4729c44f5f5f5& [10-Oct-24 11:56 PM] hernanduer#0000 ignore those BAd though, I think they're old ones [11-Oct-24 12:00 AM] .shiva.#0000 you really don't need to worry about fractional shares. f64 epsilon is 1.11e-16, and you'll be multiplying that out w/ the payouts anyways [11-Oct-24 12:01 AM] jcheung#0000 and if you do 0 traffic is 100% price increase, 50% traffic is 0, and 100% utilization is 10% discount that would mean that those 10 users in the low traffic scenario would generate an income of roughly ~90k. heavily rounding. high traffic, 160 per period, would generate roughly ~750k. also heavily rounded total ~840k. if we go the other way and apply 0 util = 50% discount, 50% util = base, 100% util = 10% surcharge, low = ~30k high = ~848k total ~875k at no discount 170 transits is 850k [11-Oct-24 12:01 AM] .shiva.#0000 more than enough precision, and if a single cred rounds away, it's w/e {Reactions} 💯 (2) [11-Oct-24 12:01 AM] jcheung#0000 now granted my numbers could be wrong [11-Oct-24 12:02 AM] jcheung#0000 but income from taxing low traffic gates an insane amount doesn't offset even a moderate discount of high traffic [11-Oct-24 12:06 AM] jcheung#0000 unless you think my example of +100% of base fare was too low for the low util gets charged more anyways. {Reactions} 🤷‍♂️ [11-Oct-24 12:06 AM] jcheung#0000 if it was like +200% (15k @ 0) then i think that would offset [11-Oct-24 12:08 AM] archielvahr#0000 If it turns a 1.5d journey into 2 hr.. then that cuts my shipping requirement (for that route) down by 15/16ths... which is a lot of 5m AIC ships saved. Which is probably a lot more than 15k per trip. I don't know if people will really think about it that way though. [11-Oct-24 12:09 AM] archielvahr#0000 Buying ships already has a long ROI, so people tend not to think about their true shipping costs. [11-Oct-24 12:09 AM] hernanduer#0000 Okay but justify to the people building the gate, why do I pay for this low traffic gate when all it will do is dilute payouts to existing people and also will have the longest repayment period [11-Oct-24 12:10 AM] hernanduer#0000 As a person building the high traffic gates I would be upset as well [11-Oct-24 12:10 AM] archielvahr#0000 Hopefully the appeal includes the synergistic effect of having a better network. So a low traffic gate will pump up numbers for higher traffic gates, raising the whole pool. [11-Oct-24 12:11 AM] archielvahr#0000 I intend to sell them that way, at least. [11-Oct-24 12:11 AM] archielvahr#0000 Plus you want to build it to prove Antaran Superiority [11-Oct-24 12:11 AM] archielvahr#0000 Just like Project 6115 😉 [11-Oct-24 12:12 AM] hernanduer#0000 Yeah, but I get the feeling a lot of this is gonna fall on big players who have little to do (like you and I) [11-Oct-24 12:12 AM] hernanduer#0000 So I want to understand reasonings 😁 [11-Oct-24 12:12 AM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah probably. [11-Oct-24 12:12 AM] jcheung#0000 i was picking arbitrary numbers again {Reactions} 👍 [11-Oct-24 12:13 AM] jcheung#0000 you can add a 0 and call base fare 50k [11-Oct-24 12:13 AM] archielvahr#0000 Most of people like you and I have abilities to do these things, so I think it's fine. [11-Oct-24 12:13 AM] archielvahr#0000 Yep, just a different way to think about it (also with made up numbers 😄 ) [11-Oct-24 12:14 AM] jcheung#0000 because you wouldn't be the only one deciding it. the collective as a whole said "let's build this link" [11-Oct-24 12:14 AM] jcheung#0000 also like i mentioned before a pair could see very high one way traffic for some weird reason [11-Oct-24 12:15 AM] jcheung#0000 like say everyone wants to go clockwise in a circle instead of flowing both ways [11-Oct-24 12:15 AM] jcheung#0000 then half of your ***paired gate*** would be the subsidized one [11-Oct-24 12:15 AM] hernanduer#0000 Eh I don't bow down to collectives, it needs to make sense to me or else I just won't contribute, that's why I wanna talk it all out [11-Oct-24 12:16 AM] hernanduer#0000 I think some people will only contribute to some gateways and not others [11-Oct-24 12:16 AM] jcheung#0000 before you say "there's no way they would go in circles like that" i was thinking of a loop like h2o > farm > processing > cx > h2o. there's no reason to go the other way [11-Oct-24 12:16 AM] hernanduer#0000 And they'd have concerns about share dilution [11-Oct-24 12:17 AM] jcheung#0000 additionally, the higher fares at high throughput areas offsets the subsidies for the low throughput ones [11-Oct-24 12:17 AM] hernanduer#0000 Ideally a share should always generate the same amount of money [11-Oct-24 12:17 AM] jcheung#0000 well it won't, ever [11-Oct-24 12:18 AM] jcheung#0000 a share will generate different amounts if on tuesday more people want to use the gate [11-Oct-24 12:18 AM] jcheung#0000 and then on wednesday they all collectively decide their base is stocked for the next week [11-Oct-24 12:18 AM] hernanduer#0000 Yeah of course, but by adding equal shares and unequal gateways, you're diluting older contributors unless they pay more [11-Oct-24 12:19 AM] hernanduer#0000 To build the new gateway [11-Oct-24 12:19 AM] jcheung#0000 no, because you get a portion of the new gate revenue [11-Oct-24 12:19 AM] hernanduer#0000 Which is lower [11-Oct-24 12:19 AM] hernanduer#0000 Because lower traffic [11-Oct-24 12:19 AM] hernanduer#0000 Meanwhile the new contributors get some of the old gateway's tolls [11-Oct-24 12:20 AM] jcheung#0000 unless you're adding cutthroat rates to the low traffic gates [11-Oct-24 12:20 AM] jcheung#0000 you will not offset what you lose to giving high throughput gates a discount [11-Oct-24 12:20 AM] jcheung#0000 and if you add cutthroat rates to a low traffic gate, only the desperate will use the gate, keeping throughput low [11-Oct-24 12:21 AM] hernanduer#0000 Sure, but you see we have two problems here [11-Oct-24 12:22 AM] hernanduer#0000 I think the solution for now should be that we target paths that have roughly equal revenue potential to gateway cost [11-Oct-24 12:22 AM] hernanduer#0000 So there shouldn't be any 16:1 imbalances [11-Oct-24 12:22 AM] jcheung#0000 there's the problem, the imbalance could be a linked pair seeing heavy one way traffic [11-Oct-24 12:23 AM] jcheung#0000 without the other half of the pair you don't get any of the revenue from the link [11-Oct-24 12:23 AM] hernanduer#0000 Hmm for that I wouldn't think so because the link doesn't exist without both [11-Oct-24 12:23 AM] hernanduer#0000 Best to think of all gateways in pairs [11-Oct-24 12:23 AM] jcheung#0000 sure, but utilization is per gate in one direction unless i misremembered something [11-Oct-24 12:24 AM] jcheung#0000 unless to determine utilization you plan to sum both ends [11-Oct-24 12:24 AM] hernanduer#0000 Perhaps all I'm saying is we should prioritize building a list of routes [11-Oct-24 12:24 AM] hernanduer#0000 And work down the list by profit potential [11-Oct-24 12:24 AM] jcheung#0000 sure, routes are one thing [11-Oct-24 12:24 AM] jcheung#0000 fares are another [11-Oct-24 12:24 AM] jcheung#0000 totally separate thing [11-Oct-24 12:25 AM] hernanduer#0000 Ya I don't really care about the fares either way, was just giving an alternative [11-Oct-24 12:25 AM] hernanduer#0000 Do think it's good to provide an idea of repayment period though [11-Oct-24 12:27 AM] jcheung#0000 well, you suggested scaling tollsbased on traffic, you're on the side of high prices to low throughput links, discounts to high throughput. if high throughput maxes out, make pricing exception for fare increase. i'm on the side of discount to low throughput to incentivize use, and surcharge for high throughput... [11-Oct-24 12:28 AM] jcheung#0000 it's your suggestion 🤷 if you want to drop it then fine [11-Oct-24 12:30 AM] archielvahr#0000 I reworked the sheets a bit. I think the "Gateway Prices" tab needs more price information, then a "shares per material" can be calculated. [11-Oct-24 12:30 AM] archielvahr#0000 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=0#gid=0 {Embed} https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=0 ADI Gateway Co-op https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/MHeLPDEJQ6VFK3VVnUZtr_A_X1LssgRpkrnuPlzcTxw/https/lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docs/AHkbwyIYYNfvo2tSJYJgGBEi88CFSEUFQlLZL9nYZxXJPSxG-KKHFq5N5ZVGIfv9oIMuaopvQzyCB5Pkx394sccde88Og717kc_Napjq0OeAMoXe_gy2FqVh%3Dw1200-h630-p [11-Oct-24 12:30 AM] archielvahr#0000 I gotta get to bed for now though [11-Oct-24 12:42 AM] evov#0000 "Hey guys, do you think it would be possible to come up with a decision on which planet in A1 should have the first gate? 450 messages later.... 🙂 First gate - my thoughts on the "viable choices" I think it's between EoS, Heph, and Phobos. Eos On average closer to the CX. (But tbh, with orbital timings, it doesn't feel like a meaningful flight difference on average between EoS / Heph ) Lower population = Easier for a collective to gain control/ownership of a gate. Less likely to be able to use taxation as a funding method. Electronics CoGC - So its easy for people to drop a permit on the planet and not feel like it's a wasted permit. Heph Still really close to the CX. High tier Manufacturing planet is kinda nice for a number of the final steps needed in the construction process. Could be a good choice if you feel like there's a race to build one first. Manufacturing planet is maybe less suitable as a place for lots of people to just "drop a permit" for control because it could be easy to outproduce demand. High existing pop might make control harder. Phobos Noticeably further from the CX so, that adds needless hours of travel in the long term. Electronics CoGC good for previously mentioned reasons. If some degree of funding from the tax base is required, it's probably the best planet for that. High existing pop might make control harder. ____ Assuming the donation/cap table method of funding is locked in as the method of funding, I think EoS is the best choice. I feel like long term control/ownership is one of the hardest hurdles to overcome, and the lower existing pop of EoS is an advantage in that respect. [11-Oct-24 12:44 AM] jcheung#0000 another plus for hep. has a shipyard and high level WAR [11-Oct-24 12:44 AM] jcheung#0000 iirc you can repair at shipyards? unless i've lost my rocker. [11-Oct-24 12:44 AM] jcheung#0000 so people coming out of the gate could immediately start repairs [11-Oct-24 12:45 AM] jcheung#0000 and the high level WAR allows for a ship to offload and turn around rapidly [11-Oct-24 12:46 AM] jcheung#0000 ...though idk if it's faster to land or go to ANT [11-Oct-24 12:47 AM] evov#0000 Yea, I never really thought about warehouses - I think that's a great point. [11-Oct-24 01:02 AM] evov#0000 But I also think warehouse count seems like a fairly easy problem to overcome if that's the deciding factor. [11-Oct-24 01:05 AM] realharvey#0000 I do understand your suggestion of a smaller planet that would be easier to take "control" of the goverment. But with that I'd also be vulnerble to hostile takeovers. [11-Oct-24 01:08 AM] evov#0000 On a large planet, the "hostile takeover" people already have bases built. Small ones - they have to actually drop permits to get numbers. [11-Oct-24 01:16 AM] realharvey#0000 There are very good suggestions and thoughts coming in this channel. But what I feel like all of this is lacking is strong leadership. Someone that directs all that input and makes sure we get to decisions. Archiel has started this Initiative, but as far as I can tell he doesn't want to lead it necessarily? So in my opinion what we first need to decide on how we want to organise "leadership" of this project. A group of people always needs some folks that make the final call that people can agree on. What form of leadship is suggest is what we run at work. I call it *"democratic dictatorship" * - Which is nothing other than: 90% the group decides as a unit what is best and 10% leadership has to make a call because discussions lead to nowhere. Leadership also keeps discussions more structured and focussed on one topic. Because this is a game and everyones time is limited, I'd suggest we need a group of 3 people. (Preferably with different timezones aswell) In Antares there are 3 Mayor player groups: OOG, ADI and AA. With these groups aligned we should be able to get control over any planet that we need. Therefore I suggest that the leadership(group) should be made up of people that have roots/connections to all those to get stuff moving. [11-Oct-24 01:41 AM] .shiva.#0000 you can repair anywhere other than a CX I'm pretty sure? [11-Oct-24 01:43 AM] .shiva.#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1294188577214959676/image.png?ex=68151249&is=6813c0c9&hm=4cffee2c8507fe1e01dcc93fe461a9717544c3283844503b5f18379b6ce60489& [11-Oct-24 01:53 AM] jcheung#0000 sounds like you need a base or a shipyard [11-Oct-24 01:53 AM] jcheung#0000 so you can't repair somewhere you don't have a base.... or a shipyard [11-Oct-24 02:03 AM] .urpalhal#0000 I’ll build a shipyard on Halcyon 😊 [11-Oct-24 02:47 AM] realharvey#0000 @archielvahr I'd like to get your opinion on this since you started the Idea of the Cooperative [11-Oct-24 07:15 AM] archielvahr#0000 I'm happy to take the leadership role. When I started the thread I knew we had a ton of time before the feature would actually launch, so I wanted to spend that time bringing people into the project so they had plenty of time to share their views and become real contributors to the planning. I haven't put my foot down about anything reallllly (especially route stuff) since we have lots of time and I don't want to alienate anyone by rushing to set things in stone. I have spoken with Rise and have him on board with the coop model. he indicated he probably won't be contributing directly, but is willing to help facilitate administration. So any planet he governs would be a fine candidate. [11-Oct-24 07:18 AM] realharvey#0000 Very good. I was planning to get rise on board aswell once we figure out what leadership will look like. [11-Oct-24 07:19 AM] realharvey#0000 If you need any help. I'll be happy to join in aswell. {Reactions} 👍 [11-Oct-24 09:05 AM] hernanduer#0000 Perhaps planets should be able to own shares [11-Oct-24 10:09 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 {Embed} poll_question_text Which ZV-307 planet will be ANT CX's Gateway Anchor? victor_answer_votes 11 total_votes 13 victor_answer_id 3 victor_answer_text ZV-307c - Hepaestus [11-Oct-24 10:16 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 {Embed} poll_question_text Which destination shall be the best, for the first Gateway link, from ZV-307? victor_answer_votes 5 total_votes 8 victor_answer_id 4 victor_answer_text LS-231 [11-Oct-24 10:19 AM] archielvahr#0000 Well, let's lock in Heph as the ANT gate planet. {Reactions} 👍 (6) [11-Oct-24 12:46 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Hah! Good one. But issues of control easily turn into the demands of voting blocks, since everyone in-game gets only 1 ADM vote, every 28 days. When the base count on a planet is small, you get fairly open windows for any political attack, with minimum effort. When those counts are rather high, you're looking at a windows for corporations, or associations, to do their work. It's fairly easily to establish a form of private consensus with the latter, since all you really need to do is just drop a "Hey-all. This is my position for this place, regarding our group interests in the long-term; I'd appreciate if you would vote for my recommendation(s)... like ASAP". Anything in-between is likely a mix of both. Given my previous "base drop samples" on Verdant, you'll be getting like 10-15% of the bases, on any planet to actually vote every 28 days. This correlates very strongly with the likely BASIC/PRO player densities on those worlds, which does indicate, at least for me, that the only people who do vote have some sort of private interest, which is generally unspoken in public. Since us peeps are not only in ADI, but also in AA or OOG... the only people really able to be involved in private associations are BASIC/PROs anyways, this lends strong credence to the idea that we'll be able to pull through the votes that we need, pretty much most of the time, in ANT space.... But regarding outer-rim stuff, like LS-231, we'd need to make up some business plans for people to go out there, drop a base, and make something profitably... Going even further down the line, to say like UV-351 Katoa, or XH-594 Libertas/Kiruna/Cortez? Good luck, since I don't think we'll have enough player densities over in those parts to make a dent. Thus a form of diplomacy would be advised for those trailing-ends of a gateway route. [11-Oct-24 01:12 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I'm also getting rather concerned, regarding potential VF fuel requirements. The bottlenecks regarding VF, lies within the EEP BUIs, which require ENGs+SCI. Getting hold of a LES base is rather trivial. Per 500 area bases, the VF fuel bottleneck follows something along the lines of this ratio: 1 COL (LES) : 1 EEP (ES) : 5 EEP (KRE) : 1 REF (VF). I think my estimates of max fuel production for that VR | REF, is 83,200 units daily. If Gateway fuel usage is anything like FF fuel rates (Parsec range * 2.115 == ~MIN FF requirements), then we might have another set of issues to deal with.... The Gateway capacity upgrades also have their own issue. While on face value, you have a Fuel Capacity : Flights Permitted ratio of 25/8, this drops to 25/12 when you do more Capacity upgrades on a gateway. With more capacity upgrades, you'll get potentially more actual trips, with the larger fuel bays... But should those capacity requirements go beyond a certain point, and the gate will stop to function until re-fueled. This would point to having some sort of stand-by ships, ready and able to refuel those things, with a full load of VF? [11-Oct-24 01:59 PM] hernanduer#0000 we don't know the burn rate of VF to jumps [11-Oct-24 01:59 PM] hernanduer#0000 so I wouldn't put too much thought into that side yet [11-Oct-24 02:03 PM] realbandit#0000 We do have data on the fuel capacity of gates, starting at 625, presumably units, but it could be in t or m^3 in which case it's 6250. Unless they intend for gateways to have to be refuelled several times per day, each trip can only consume between 2.5-25 VF based on the numbers per upgrade for jumps and fuel. Based on that you only need either 1/6th of a REF, or 1.5 REF per gateway - and thats at 100% efficiency. You also only need 1.55x more EEP than REF. {Reactions} 😮 [11-Oct-24 02:14 PM] jcheung#0000 I would ASSume that it would be closer to 6250 stored [11-Oct-24 02:17 PM] realbandit#0000 Yeah, 6250 would make more sense We estimate VF to be about the same price as SF/FF, maybe a bit cheaper, so a 300M gateway only needing 10k of fuel per day seems low. Though 100k per day seems low too. [11-Oct-24 02:19 PM] archielvahr#0000 Keeping it fueled might be intended to be a mechanic more like "Hey does someone sorta pay attention to this every once in a while?" rather than "Someone has to devote serious effort and shipping to keep it fueled" [11-Oct-24 02:20 PM] realbandit#0000 So, more like POPI, and less like someone with 35 RIGs on Basic with 5 queue slots? [11-Oct-24 02:20 PM] archielvahr#0000 Exactly [11-Oct-24 02:21 PM] archielvahr#0000 Or filling a COGC- it never breaks anyone's bank, you just gotta remember to do it. [11-Oct-24 02:21 PM] archielvahr#0000 COGC is like 1% of the costs of Malahat [11-Oct-24 02:25 PM] realbandit#0000 Though only Gov can supply VF right? At least with CoGC anyone on planet can fill it if it runs out [11-Oct-24 02:32 PM] archielvahr#0000 Probably any MP, hopefully it doesn't take a motion [11-Oct-24 02:33 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah I don't know what it will look like, because we don't have anything only a governor or MP can fill, and I feel like they don't want to make something new for this 😛 [11-Oct-24 03:12 PM] jvaler#0000 so what's the deal with this whole share thing? are gateways actually going to generate enough profit to warrant that? [11-Oct-24 03:14 PM] jcheung#0000 The real question is, is this a for profit endeavor, or public service infrastructure [11-Oct-24 03:14 PM] jcheung#0000 Because that determines how much profit there is 😂 [11-Oct-24 04:04 PM] jvaler#0000 i don't see why contributors shouldn't be rewarded for their efforts [11-Oct-24 04:04 PM] jvaler#0000 and that'd be done by some kind of taxes on the gateway, right? which would be player set? [11-Oct-24 04:20 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah that's how the share thing works, basically. [11-Oct-24 04:20 PM] archielvahr#0000 Contributors should be rewarded by the tolls collected [11-Oct-24 04:21 PM] archielvahr#0000 So if you put up 50% of the stuff for the gateways, you get 50% of the shares, then you get 50% of the tolls [11-Oct-24 04:22 PM] archielvahr#0000 Don't really know how much it adds up to but I think it's important to have a fair plan in place regardless. [11-Oct-24 04:42 PM] jcheung#0000 right, my question was more "do we aim for a cheap ticket price and go for a longer ROI, or try to make the ROI as short as possible" [11-Oct-24 04:48 PM] marat_sh#0000 you can't have expansive tickets or people just not gonna use it [11-Oct-24 05:00 PM] jvaler#0000 fair enough. not enough information i guess [11-Oct-24 05:52 PM] hernanduer#0000 VF looks like half the BAd but twice the consumption cost [11-Oct-24 05:52 PM] hernanduer#0000 so probably something like 20-25/u wouldn't be outlandish (.039 BAd and 8.67 consumption cost/u) [11-Oct-24 05:58 PM] realbandit#0000 Interesting, I think our prices might be more biased towards area than you guys then. But overall it's the same ballpark as SF/FF - which makes the dev's apparent choice of usage rate strange in terms of scale. [11-Oct-24 05:59 PM] realbandit#0000 Possibly KR is going to be a lot harder to extract? [11-Oct-24 05:59 PM] marat_sh#0000 I wonder if they set down and thought about numbers like you guys do 🤔 [11-Oct-24 06:00 PM] realbandit#0000 *cough* W-PT recipe *cough* [11-Oct-24 06:00 PM] realbandit#0000 We know they use 'pio-days' as a measurement [11-Oct-24 06:00 PM] marat_sh#0000 a lot of recipes feels like they just spit gums at the ceiling and look what sticks [11-Oct-24 06:02 PM] realbandit#0000 I think most recipes are fine, and even that could be a way of just creating variance (via tiers, building, or location) so i don't mind that, but what bothers me is inconsistency, like the W recipe and the VF usage rate. Implies they don't have an accurate reading of the universe and how the players are operating. {Reactions} 💯 [11-Oct-24 06:03 PM] realbandit#0000 But yeah, I would hope that as developers they plan things out a lot better than that [11-Oct-24 06:07 PM] marat_sh#0000 I also think that there is not enough alt recipes... Do like US does... mix corn into everything {Reactions} 😆 (3) 😭 [11-Oct-24 06:10 PM] archielvahr#0000 I eat corn flakes for breakfast, put corn ethanol in my car, drink corn syrup in my soda, and put sometimes I even eat corn 🌽 {Reactions} 🌽 (4) [11-Oct-24 06:20 PM] .urpalhal#0000 The US got maybe a lil too good at growing corn [11-Oct-24 06:21 PM] marat_sh#0000 They got a bit silly with it [11-Oct-24 06:38 PM] archielvahr#0000 Oh I forgot about corn tortilla chips [11-Oct-24 07:55 PM] tanda#0000 corn isn't a food, it's a religion {Reactions} 👆 🤣 [11-Oct-24 11:53 PM] realharvey#0000 If promitor would rule the world we'd have beans in everything [12-Oct-24 12:04 AM] tanda#0000 hard to argue that anymore after their system name got snatched by the carbon cult [12-Oct-24 04:24 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 It's hard to argue with anyone, who puts up their money for a vanity product. [12-Oct-24 05:00 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I chatted about this in the ADI thread that we have used before. There's basically a price ceiling for potential toll fares. You've got the SF + FF + Depreciation costs for any FTL ship doing an ANT <--> BEN (or anything for that matter) trip [Average cost estimate]. The gateways will have their own "fixed" Average cost estimates for SF + Depreciation on the client-side. On the operator side will be the "fixed" VF usages [Sum of VF usage across all gateways for said trip]. Subtracting those two figures from each other will give you a potential max toll that can be applied over the route from the gateways. If the tolls fares are then equal with the price ceiling estimates for FTL travel, you have a 50:50 shot that people will take the gateways, over just spooling their FTLs on the route, for any given instance of travel. If it's marginally less than it, I'm sure that people will do their contract calculations, and prefer to proc gateway use, rather than incur marginally more shipping costs from not using it. ```Price_Ceiling || SF_ftl + FF_ftl + Depreciation_ftl Gateway_Fixed || SF_gate + Depreciation_gate + VF_gate Price_Ceiling - Gateway_Fixed == Toll_Ceiling || Toll_Ceiling / Gateway_transits == Max Toll on each gateway within the route``` [12-Oct-24 05:09 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Pricing tolls for FTL traffic, since one field of thought wants to include them, to increase potential weekly revenues, has it's own negative feedback system built into it.... Not by outright design, but by player habit... If you have shitty shipping contract offers all over the place, and people are arbitraging the s*** out of the intra-day trade at each CX, now you're basically shoving any FTL shipper into a rat-race, towards the bottom of profit margins, and expense considerations will be a foremost concern for them, being the customer. The other field of thought is pricing tolls for STL traffic. There's basically no price ceiling for tolls on them, since they're paying for a premium benefit of having their STL ships, be able to do FTL runs. Rather, there's a price floor, with the aforementioned "fixed" operating costs on the FTL side (minus the FF of course). [12-Oct-24 05:14 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Devs will just run another instance of whatever noise generator that they used to build the current universe, just for KR, and then paste those results over the current instance.. You might have a few new planets, or you might have some current planets with the surprise benefit of cheap and abundant KR, when the release is had.... It'll be a random shot though. Pray to R.N.Gesus for the best results. [12-Oct-24 05:26 AM] evov#0000 r.e. Price Ceiling on STL traffic - Gateway fee's will be competing against the cost to upgrade their STL ship to an FTL ship, or to just buy an FTL ship. I also think it's a mistake to ignore the benefits of faster travel times. It will have differing value to different people, but just because it's hard to quantify, doesn't mean it's not a factor when making price comparisons between Gateway trips vs existing FTL trips. [12-Oct-24 05:34 AM] evov#0000 I tend to agree that a lot of the CX-CX trade that happens IS, and will continue to be, a rat race to the bottom. At this stage, I don't believe it will be possible for Gateways to be cheaper per unit to transport goods CX-CX than existing shipping. Most of their viability at this stage will boil down to the time savings ( which we don't really know enough about yet ) [12-Oct-24 05:34 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yeah there's that... But are you really going to upgrade your Gateway STLs, into FTLs... If we set our toll math properly, we'd be forcing people to abide by the metrics we set, since then you can either use the gateways as is, or invest liquidity that you won't get back, for an FTL ship that you don't need. [12-Oct-24 05:35 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 @molp please, patch in some established gateways, within range of each other, so that we can fiddle around, on the test server xD [12-Oct-24 05:37 AM] evov#0000 I think a Gateway STL ship is a very specific and Niche option. And I simply wouldn't make one unless the transit costs were low enough. So, gateway pricing would need to be low enough for that to be an attractive option - hence the Ceiling on FTL ship travel prices being dependent on the cost difference between building an STL ship vs FTL ship. [12-Oct-24 05:38 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yeah, but it's what is it.... an "early adopter" thing... Once the greater market of established gateway networks get set around the place, you'll be entering market maturity, and STL viability will be much more, than what we're seeing for the first few months after the release date. [12-Oct-24 06:04 AM] evov#0000 Sure, STL ships will be more viable after gateways. But they're at like.. 6.5% of the ship production at the moment. So it would seem kind of . . . . odd... to be using the experience of STL ship operators as a guide for pricing, unless you think we'll be able to charge ships different prices for using a gate depending on if they have an FTL engine or not. [12-Oct-24 06:09 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yeah, I don't think so either... It is however something to potentially bring up on the forums, to help "guide" the devs thinking. Idk how effective such things would be though. Having a sort of "stats" on the gateway buffer, regarding traffic flows, would be a nice addition. Without variable pricing methods, we're looking at that FTL price ceiling that I mentioned first, since it's the most tangible metric that we could use on release, without any further changes to what the devs have told us that they intend. [12-Oct-24 08:33 AM] hernanduer#0000 I'm still of the mind they'll add a 5k ship at some point [12-Oct-24 08:33 AM] hernanduer#0000 Which they may make STL only or the FTL will just be so slow or something [12-Oct-24 01:06 PM] jcheung#0000 no. it's not just about fuel cost, but also time cost. at the same cost, the odds of gate usage will be significantly higher than FTL travel [12-Oct-24 06:27 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Is the Colossus of Rhodes a good meme for ADI's Gateway Cooperative? Idk. ``` In the late fourth century BC, Rhodes, allied with Ptolemy I of Egypt, prevented a mass invasion staged by their common enemy, Antigonus I Monophthalmus. In 304 BC a relief force of ships sent by Ptolemy arrived, and Demetrius (son of Antigonus) and his army abandoned the siege, leaving behind most of their siege equipment. To celebrate their victory, the Rhodians sold the equipment left behind for 300 talents and decided to use the money to build a colossal statue of their patron god, Helios. ``` ``` According to wage rates from 377 BC, a talent was the value of nine man-years of skilled work. This corresponds to 2340 work days or 11.1 grams (0.36 ozt) of silver per worker per workday. ``` Geez, 300 peeps devoting 9 years each of their labour, for a common cause. It sure seems appropriate. I'm just being silly. 😛 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1294803616632144043/sdfg.jpg?ex=6814ac16&is=68135a96&hm=3cd8e1bea6436faa720235a1e3e52c1dbdec3fae6c35e2d376d2f248a2268da5& [12-Oct-24 06:33 PM] hernanduer#0000 26kg of silver is crazy [12-Oct-24 06:34 PM] hernanduer#0000 but you're also just looking at wages for common men, you gotta remember inequality throughout most of time has been so much higher than it is today. So common freemen then didn't earn all that much, or keep all that much of their labor [12-Oct-24 06:34 PM] hernanduer#0000 still 300 talents isn't nothing [12-Oct-24 06:52 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Hmm, a rather good opportunity for a tangent.... The most of what we earn, is either some cheaply printed paper notes of credit, inked with some communal belief in its worth at most, or some electronic entry in some private enterprise's database. Neither of which I can do some metal-work on, and produce something with a value-added margin. Food for thought? ... Ping me on an #office or #communal-area channel in here, for some proper discourse. Else I'm leaving this as-is, for more room for some new AGC ideas. [14-Oct-24 04:34 PM] archielvahr#0000 I am open to proposed prices for gateway materials for the purposes of calculating contribution shares. These could be either CX based or Base-area-day based (or a mix). I found some math errors in my personal BAd sheet and I've been a bit busy at work so I have been delayed fixing them. [14-Oct-24 04:34 PM] archielvahr#0000 So if anyone puts lists together for discussion, that'd be great [14-Oct-24 04:52 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I've been seeing that #BAd acronym for some time... what is it? [14-Oct-24 04:52 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Super-secret hispanic siracha sauce? [14-Oct-24 04:56 PM] jvaler#0000 probably means base area day [14-Oct-24 04:56 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Ohh, about those figures... It'll likely take us a bit of time to make all of that stuff.... I'd reccomend copy+pasta the FIO, or whatever functional formulae are used, to be fixed figures when everything is called up for. [14-Oct-24 04:57 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 6-12 months of dev time, will tender significant inflation rates for pretty much everything on that list. [14-Oct-24 05:16 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Ugh... We're at like 29% planned contribution.. Being months ahead of development, I'd say this is a good thing... Now where to stash my goodies, so that I don't accidentally move them elsewhere..... [14-Oct-24 11:26 PM] hernanduer#0000 just to reiterate mine here, as far as proportional representation, I think these make the most sense [14-Oct-24 11:26 PM] hernanduer#0000 they're tied to the ratio of BAd to consumption cost that SEA generates [14-Oct-24 11:27 PM] hernanduer#0000 so SEA costs .548 BAd to make 1, and also costs 27.186 AIC in workforce mats and repair cost [14-Oct-24 11:27 PM] hernanduer#0000 the sale price of SEA is 120 [14-Oct-24 11:27 PM] hernanduer#0000 so that gives a ratio of BAd importance as 77%, and the consumption cost as 23% (exact number in pic). It does this by simple (120 - 27.186)/120 for BAd and 27.186/120 for consumption [14-Oct-24 11:27 PM] hernanduer#0000 it then applies that 77/23 split to all the other mats [14-Oct-24 11:27 PM] hernanduer#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1295603989651521630/image.png?ex=6814f27e&is=6813a0fe&hm=86fe28d694d73cc3f6093ffa03ee344e3ca7d69f14659bfb3cdc4995a9da6663& [14-Oct-24 11:27 PM] hernanduer#0000 and calculates the shares that way [14-Oct-24 11:28 PM] hernanduer#0000 so just rescale the share column however you want (I already did that there for 1500 shares instead of ~1.87mil) [14-Oct-24 11:28 PM] hernanduer#0000 but if anyone has a better idea, or a more complete BAd calculator, feel free to chime in 🙂 [15-Oct-24 02:51 AM] evov#0000 Why not just use AIC as the currency instead of inventing something new? Is it just so you can get a good "price" for the items not yet available? [15-Oct-24 06:02 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Concerns... https://prosperousuniverse.com/blog/2024/10/15/refining-the-links-455 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1295703463686176808/Screenshot_from_2024-10-15_06-01-47.png?ex=6814a662&is=681354e2&hm=b12fa81002c1b4ae11e4233df11deec3f677111d11a6daf6249b78f5dfacbc73& {Embed} https://prosperousuniverse.com/blog/2024/10/15/refining-the-links-455 Refining the Links - Development Log #455 | Prosperous Universe Mac's artworks are now available as high quality fine art prints and Michi refines the gateway linking process. https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/TXwRPXyyJKJ_JPmEw9hI3Vrd3IiG596XDQvkB1J_LD0/https/cdn.prosperousuniverse.com/website/og_image/asteroid-day-2023.jpg [15-Oct-24 06:08 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Perhaps it's a cheaper way to get "funnelled" one-way gateway traffic, or it's an in-road to political strife. [15-Oct-24 06:12 AM] evov#0000 I don't believe so. I think you're just misunderstanding. I think this post lines up with existing plans/assumptions. Many gates can "point" towards a single gate. But a link is only formed when both gates point at each other. The ui Moip's working on/showing off there is showing the ( These are the gates "trying" to link with you, who do you want to link with ) scenario. The "Link Status" line might be a hint. [15-Oct-24 06:20 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Hmm, yeah that makes sense. Will it be causing confusion with those who are unfamiliar with the development plans? Likely. Incoming/Outgoing have very hard logical consequents... Whereas the development plan is just using those terms as a baseline for any "potential" incoming links, verified through GOV motion, and one hard-set 1:1 link parity via an outgoing connection. [15-Oct-24 01:33 PM] archielvahr#0000 Can you send me a non-screenshot link so I can paste them in somewhere? 😄 [15-Oct-24 02:01 PM] jcheung#0000 you can get one yourself from discord [15-Oct-24 02:03 PM] archielvahr#0000 Err you sent me a link to the same png..? [15-Oct-24 02:06 PM] jcheung#0000 oh, you mean you wanted a link to the sheet? [15-Oct-24 02:06 PM] jcheung#0000 oops [15-Oct-24 02:08 PM] hernanduer#0000 I put it at the end of the BAd one I sent you [15-Oct-24 02:10 PM] archielvahr#0000 Okay I found it, thanks! [16-Oct-24 08:46 AM] archielvahr#0000 My 160% efficiency Space Tether weaving planet is ready. It's stocked with mats to make 9700 SPT. It can make one gateway worth in ~7d 😄 {Reactions} 👍 (2) 😮 [16-Oct-24 03:20 PM] realbandit#0000 Sounds impressive, until you realize that's just a single CLF lol 2 WPL and 4 CLR if you want the inputs too. [16-Oct-24 03:21 PM] archielvahr#0000 Lmao. I got 4 CLFs so maybe double check my math [16-Oct-24 03:21 PM] archielvahr#0000 Never had a CLF before. [16-Oct-24 03:21 PM] archielvahr#0000 Gonna make a lot of lab coats before the gateways release [16-Oct-24 03:24 PM] realbandit#0000 100u every 12h (or 320/d if at 160%) and each gateway only needs ~2200 right? [16-Oct-24 03:42 PM] jcheung#0000 i wouldn't mind having cheaper LCs in the universe 😄 [16-Oct-24 04:07 PM] marat_sh#0000 Cheaper SIL will be available on CX soon [16-Oct-24 04:07 PM] marat_sh#0000 maybe it will help with LCs prices [18-Oct-24 01:23 AM] evov#0000 From my numbers ( allowing for a production rate of 1 gateway per 100 days ) - Less than half a CLF and half an AAF would be needed to meet those targets ( most of which can't be produced until after the new recipes are in the game ). So I think I'll look to modify an existing Manufacturing base closer to the time they're made available. [18-Oct-24 01:45 AM] realbandit#0000 Our numbers show about 136 AAF days per Gateway, so counting it at 160.5% efficiency it's closer to 85% of an AAF to reach a gateway every 100 days. But on that note, remember that the GWS has to be made on planet, and would be made last, so that could stall the overall construction somewhat. [18-Oct-24 01:50 AM] realbandit#0000 I'm couting 5 GWS total, 4 GWS for the initial build and 1 for the Volume, which I think explains the difference. [18-Oct-24 01:54 AM] evov#0000 It's more likely I've entered a number wrong somewhere from the new recipes tbh since I did most of my workings late one night haha. I think for AAF's - its 5 GWS / 6 SST and 6 PFG ( for the typical gateway +1 volume+3 range). It still feels like it's in the... 1-2 buildings required region, which i'm not worried about as much as some of the other parts. [18-Oct-24 01:59 AM] realbandit#0000 Actually I might have been using 7 GWS - from a calculation assuming we wanted 3km^3 ships to fit through. If we just go for the 1 volume to fit 2k/2k's it's 5 GWS, and about 0.6 AAF's to get a gateway every 100 days. [18-Oct-24 02:00 AM] evov#0000 Yea, I saw an error I had as well - moves it up to closer to 100% usage of a single AAF to meet that timeline. Still doesn't feel like a major problem with respect to timelines or productive capacity. {Reactions} 👍 [18-Oct-24 02:02 AM] evov#0000 I think these are the things the existing market won't be able to handle, so it's where any of my future productive efforts are directed towards -> {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1296730022949683201/image.png?ex=681516b1&is=6813c531&hm=d37ca006d98e2e964f8b9afb9984262ebdff64d402dd67df028070fd8c0b2c95& [18-Oct-24 02:03 AM] evov#0000 CBL/LIT/SP I'm producing now. PSH/RSH - in the middle of setting up productive capacity - probably wont "flick the switch" until I know if they'll actually be needed or not. TSH is the next on my list to get sorted. [18-Oct-24 03:28 AM] realbandit#0000 I've gone over the SPT to check now, and @archielvahr I think you may be right - the SPT per gateway is actually 5,200, or 16.25d worth at 160.5% efficiency. So you would need multiple CLF's. But more importantly, it seems both the ADI sheet and SNF's own has a Gateway needing 2000 SPT, but this screenshot from the test server shows it only takes 200 for the actual gateway (and 1k per GWS). Where did we mix this up? {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1296751769799626812/image.png?ex=68148232&is=681330b2&hm=2859d0b1f31d25a9b6e0bc87815f7b828d22f964fce28f44a8e9fc04813c5bd0& [18-Oct-24 03:31 AM] evov#0000 5300 SPT is what I have allowed for ( again, assuming a standard of 1 volume + 3 distance upgrades ) {Reactions} 👍 [18-Oct-24 03:33 AM] evov#0000 =636 hrs of CLF time = 26.5 days @100% efficiency = 16.5 days @160% efficiency [18-Oct-24 06:59 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Mmm... A happy mistake? Not ours either. I triple checked figures when I dug into the test server gateway stuff, and then dug some more to pull out all the material reqs for the options, which was a while back now. If they actually updated that SPT figure for the base gateways, someone just added an extra 0 in the code base, and only caught that mistake now. https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/images/gateway-choices.png {Embed} https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/images/gateway-choices.png https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/Qdnjw5HIcTtAROlMzlYdo-dqECpCY3X-lHuqmZ-2ozM/https/oogcapitalmanagement.com/images/gateway-choices.png [18-Oct-24 07:13 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 TSH metrics also have a "fib" in the MAT buffer. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1296808444631846982/Screenshot_from_2024-10-18_07-13-08.png?ex=6814b6fa&is=6813657a&hm=d178a0a0b6cc31d9d17703c9d3c9ce44479d374b0e21cf4160dcf4c404507752& [18-Oct-24 08:42 AM] archielvahr#0000 Nice finds! I will mention this to the devs [18-Oct-24 08:50 AM] archielvahr#0000 I assume the gateway construction screen is correct, but we'll see what the devs say [18-Oct-24 11:29 AM] archielvahr#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1296872839818907689/image.png?ex=6814f2f3&is=6813a173&hm=29fd2d820cf5b3519f15016fae9f2c108443f476c654e1e0c105843e06c0dc92& {Reactions} 👍 [19-Oct-24 04:02 AM] pi3142718#0000 Already got a decent start going on some of those for ADI {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1297122769099558974/image0.jpg?ex=68148a37&is=681338b7&hm=6577be38595add2b120a37dcd6464910e10a873677459efb97a77f1391e388a6& {Reactions} 👍 [19-Oct-24 04:03 AM] pi3142718#0000 PSH honestly isn’t too bad. LIT will take more effort [19-Oct-24 04:16 AM] evov#0000 Most of the gateway mats I produce will likely just go to the CX for the moment. I've started a project to see if I can fund a gateway with planet taxation. I suspect it's going to take quite a while to make that happen and there's no real benefit to having the mats sitting in a warehouse while various other groups are starting to build. [19-Oct-24 07:55 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Hmm. You probably can get a decent revenue stream, from a planet... You'll need something at least of 100 bases there, to get something decent. I can't give you estimates, since I'm working on a general sheet, for similar things, that I'll likely incorporate into a #jailbreak version of Archiel's GOV sheet. But that sort of revenue stream will be involuntary, compared to what we might be doing. You're also going through a set of market inefficiencies there -- converting liquidity, into commodities on the CX, which have their own profit margins attached to the units available. [19-Oct-24 07:57 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 The other groups are also in the same situation that we are. No gateway tech to install right now. So everyone either waits and builds up stock; or doesn't wait, makes more money doing their usual thing, and then re-tools without an immediate stock. [19-Oct-24 09:15 AM] evov#0000 Yea, 1 planet didn't seem like it would cut it, so I've set up 5 planets in a system for the purpose so far. Given the sheer number of gateways needed to complete a CX loop, I'd rather work towards something that has a chance of funding re-curing future gates rather than something that's donation based. Even if the funding via taxes fails miserably, at least the ANT region will have gained a useful industrial hub and I'll just build a few gates myself if/when private ownership becomes a thing. [19-Oct-24 09:28 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 hmmm. You could try out voluntary WAR rentals (very high WAR fees --- people don't have to rent em, since we have STOs)... Higher LM fees will also work. A good base establishment fee as well..... Ah you're already doing triple duty on the BE fees, over at IA-151. [19-Oct-24 05:13 PM] evov#0000 Nope. WAR rentals and LM fee's will be kept as low as possible. The whole point of developing a system with ( Construction + Electronics + Manufacturing + Chem + Metallurgy ) CoGC's in the same system is to make it easier for collaboration and cross industry trade. Cheap and accessible LM's and Warehouses help facilitate that. [20-Oct-24 10:37 AM] archielvahr#0000 In accordance with this poll, let's discuss locking in Heph <-> LS-231 as the first set of ADI gates in ANT. https://discord.com/channels/1183243037430796339/1293249484418977852/1293955192022241392 My goal is to lock down the choice in the next day or two. I think consensus was pretty strong on LS-231. [20-Oct-24 12:11 PM] pi3142718#0000 I’m all for that. {Reactions} 👍 (3) [24-Oct-24 12:50 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Today is Thursday? Yes. I'm just parsing some data for the ADI Gateway sheet. Please vote if you have any base, on these locations (multi answers are accepted)... [24-Oct-24 12:51 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 [24-Oct-24 12:56 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 These results will be cross-checked for: - First for ADI Gateway contribution concurrence... - Second for ADI activity concurrence... #Voting blocks have been mentioned as a serious concern for investment retention, through these many weeks, I'm just following through. I'll collect the details, per vote, and drop them in the ADI sheet. The vote period is just for 7 days. Most of you should see the post. 🙂 There will likely be deficiencies regarding LS-231.... We might have to pour more funds just for HQ upgrades + ships, just to spin up additional bases in that system. This is purely by the numbers. The devs truly gave us a fuzz-ball, with gateway mechanics linked with GOV mechanics.. [24-Oct-24 02:05 PM] archielvahr#0000 I have a free permit I intend to drop in LS-231, and max out construction experts so I can have WELs for the GWS [24-Oct-24 02:06 PM] archielvahr#0000 I have a slight preference for Aratora (need some more BTS) so I'll mark that. Open to other suggestions though. [24-Oct-24 03:35 PM] jvaler#0000 @Polls [24-Oct-24 03:36 PM] jvaler#0000 i just remembered we have that role to use =P [24-Oct-24 03:53 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Can I haz? Call me the #poll-person... And I shall censor!? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census This is a pun on English-Latin translation. Plz don't hate. y_y {Embed} https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census Census A census (from Latin censere, 'to assess') is the procedure of systematically acquiring, recording, and calculating population information about the members of a given population, usually displayed in the form of statistics. This term is used mostly in connection with national population and housing censuses; other common censuses include census... https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/ciXY8vA9GluTq6vZUuXMt3BPFB6xlG49DkNNh2epzlc/https/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Volkstelling_1925_Census.jpg/1200px-Volkstelling_1925_Census.jpg [24-Oct-24 03:54 PM] jvaler#0000 oh do members not have ping perms? lemme fix that [24-Oct-24 03:54 PM] jvaler#0000 wait yeah u do {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1299113829866934342/image.png?ex=68148849&is=681336c9&hm=a609d63598de3ee264b5ca821eb61efd3cd8972dac812432a10b097d5afd34f5& [24-Oct-24 03:54 PM] jvaler#0000 do you mean you want the poll role? you can get it from #reaction-roles [24-Oct-24 04:02 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Nice! <--- LZ AF... 😄 [24-Oct-24 05:33 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 You alone... against the other 185 current members of #agc-general ? OR - The current x18 permits on LS-231b; - The current x6 permits on LS-231c; - The current x6 permits on LS-231d..... ---------------------- I myself can literally pivot from a planned Bober CHP base, to an Aratora CHP base, with little issue. I'm just pointing out numbers, since we need #them numbers. [24-Oct-24 05:45 PM] archielvahr#0000 Not sure I follow? [24-Oct-24 05:48 PM] hernanduer#0000 idk man [24-Oct-24 05:48 PM] hernanduer#0000 I think he's trying to say more people should have permits {Reactions} 👍 [24-Oct-24 05:48 PM] realbandit#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1299142512379953245/image.png?ex=6814a2ff&is=6813517f&hm=d0995d6ee4a76af67281df97688f385cb462b54213e403f30f99f90a829809df& [24-Oct-24 06:19 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 OK. I will "table" this for now. The expected dev release for gateways should be in mid-Summer (June-July) '25, per the usual 'dev schedule... I've given my concerns... Others have as well... All should be free to comment again, on any concerns that they see here, and in the ADI Gateway Thread (depreciated).... [24-Oct-24 06:30 PM] marat_sh#0000 Count me in if we gonna have a manufacturing COGC in LS-231 {Reactions} 💯 [24-Oct-24 07:01 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 However... Seeing how the chatter here is developing... Some weight should be given with each person's pledge of #contribution (currency or materials), to the project --- with their opinion.... **Keep it #real, or keep it #fake.** We're talking about serious figures, **without any** structured-loan program, or guarantees with in-game programming. Any 10^6 figure donation (1,000,000 AIC) will directly detriment the expansion rates for anyone donating. You need more FTL ships, or more A-fab HQ permits for personal stuff? Well too-bad, since we need your donations! We should have something like 6 months of time to discuss any issues at hand... Even if they're marginal issues... [24-Oct-24 07:24 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Current pledges are like what? 8 users out of 185 total #agc-general members? That yields a ratio of 8:185 directly, which is not even 5% of our overall ADI population here in this chat. Lets hammer out whatever issues we have, into a flat-sheet of common interests, that we all agree upon, and can contribute material/finances for. **We've got 6 months for this**.. This is literally a #hostile-negotiation. I'm trying to be nice... And I'm giving a lot of lee-way for project cords to steer this project, with what they would like.. [24-Oct-24 07:24 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 https://tenor.com/view/whipping-johnny-rico-gif-19817777 {Embed} https://tenor.com/view/whipping-johnny-rico-gif-19817777 https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/k9vGripCSf6n8kpvbbNLlhoTQZ7a-D1129s037gROF8/https/media.tenor.com/s7Vj1Q_9K5EAAAAe/whipping-johnny-rico.png [24-Oct-24 07:28 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Hate me all you want.. If you x185 peeps have no focus, you'll never, statistically, reach **ANY** common goal. A common goal is my prerogative... I've only seen comments from at most x15 of y'all. I need moar!!! -----> 6 months for peeps to hash our their personal + corp + global plans, via gateways, and long-term stuff. 😛 [24-Oct-24 07:28 PM] jvaler#0000 not quite sure why you keep bringing up 185, is that just the members list who have access to this channel? that's just the population of ADI, most of those ppl aren't involved in AGC planning [24-Oct-24 07:30 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I'm not involved in ADI server admin... Why you bring this up? Idk.. This is just statistics... All who view this are pertaining to the eventual results. [24-Oct-24 07:31 PM] jvaler#0000 > I'm not involved in ADI server admin... Why you bring this up? you can still count the members list, that's not an admin-only thing. that's how you got your 185 number to begin with anyways...? [24-Oct-24 07:32 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 You have at most, per current ADI sheet uptake... 8 people who are contributing... Versus the overall population figures that you've all included in this conversation... this ain't a debate, per **my** standards. [24-Oct-24 07:32 PM] jvaler#0000 or is that not where 185 comes from? you didn't answer my question of where you got 185 from [24-Oct-24 07:43 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I'd like more contributions, from anyone...... ~ 185 from Discord drop-downs? 1 Project Admin + 4 Server Boosters + 4 Co-ords + 46 Project Members + 5 Project Associates + 2 Online Peeps + 124 Offline Peeps...... --> 186 people who have access to this channel, who can contribute, who can offer opinions via anything related, offer dissensions, et.c. .... (**we have 6+ months per usual dev patches btw**)... I'm literally not trying to fight you on this. I'm just trying to help build some content, interaction, and donations. [24-Oct-24 07:48 PM] jvaler#0000 sorry didn't mean to give off the tone that i was trying to fight [24-Oct-24 07:48 PM] jvaler#0000 just wanna understand what you're saying [24-Oct-24 07:49 PM] jvaler#0000 keep in mind that the members list doesn't really reflect active players though. consider daily chat activity in the server vs the member count [24-Oct-24 07:49 PM] jcheung#0000 Something that would help with engagement is brevity {Reactions} 👆 (4) 😶 [24-Oct-24 07:57 PM] tanda#0000 Judging anything by that sheet is also misplaced. I've seen multiple people talking about preparing whole bases for contributions that aren't on that sheet [24-Oct-24 08:40 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yeah, we've got time to #hash out everything. [24-Oct-24 08:41 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 100% {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1299186103521382461/Screenshot_from_2024-10-24_20-41-19.png?ex=6814cb98&is=68137a18&hm=cfa26814b712c41d86a70ad7c1b2ca6e304db520c8f473dbd83f33855e87df9d& [24-Oct-24 08:46 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Whole bases?.... We're experimenting with this stuff, at the very least... BUT... Pretty much every base will require some sort of RAT/DW/OVE/COV/PWO feeding operation, + Inputs /Outputs B/L/R -- Fabs to sustain itself. [24-Oct-24 08:47 PM] jcheung#0000 I don't think consumables and base repairs are in scope {Reactions} 👆 [24-Oct-24 08:53 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yes and no.... No in that consumables + base repairs + shipping are largely up to the individual player to handle + negotiate/purchase... Yes in that the previous things, will affect long-term trends... [24-Oct-24 08:53 PM] jcheung#0000 Out of scope [24-Oct-24 08:54 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Offer full base/permit allocations, and you'll be 2/3 out-of-scope. [24-Oct-24 08:56 PM] archielvahr#0000 I don’t hate you and I don’t think this is a hostile negotiation. I’m not sure if you are upset with me. I just think everyone here is trying to understand what you are saying. [24-Oct-24 08:56 PM] jcheung#0000 If you wants to volunteer bases for fixed cost consumables, then it can be discussed...? But the way i see it, the focus should be gateways not things 15 items down the production chain which may or may not affect the final output price [24-Oct-24 09:53 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Same. I'll give like 10-20 minutes in here each day.. So that we're all on the same page.. (I've mentioned before, regarding the 'dev imposed fuzz-ball... yeah it's exactly that).. At the extremes of "my language", most of y'all are not on the same page as me, so let me try to correct this, since we have time, and since most ppl's life experiences aren't the same as mine. 1) In a "hostile" negotiation, all parties to such thing, advocate for their best interest... So MOR people advocate for Mor stuff.... ANT people advocate for Ant stuff. HRT and BEN people advocate for their own interests, and the like... The best outcome for this, is for everyone to meet each other "in-the-middle", so that something is agree'd upon and taken action there upon, from such.... 2) In a "pacifist" negotiation, all parties to such a thing, advocate not for their best interest, but for whatever interest seems to be the "best" option... Socially, politically, financially...... The best outcome for this, is for most "people", to agree upon some standard. **This need not be some communal benefit.** Some can, and usually do benefit more, than others, in this style. #1 Is pure maths..... #2 Is when you want to follow a given political coalition, when you really haven't made up your own mind.... [24-Oct-24 10:07 PM] marat_sh#0000 I wonder what's the income from all ANT planets (excluding expanses for COGC/POPI). This whole project is a financial suicide... There are barely any people who would benefit from gates for the price they cost. If anyone would want to finance this it should be taxes from ANT planets + IDC charity [24-Oct-24 10:10 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 ^^^^ Yes, option #3... Just go end yourself? Right... Dev metrics are ill- based, illogical, and will have most people quitting in 6+ months if they choose such...... [24-Oct-24 10:14 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 More commentary tomorrow... Dev's logic is not as straight-forward as most #immediate-return focused player objectives are. Devs are looking towards long-term outcomes. Most Governors, on all your favorite planets, have long since quit before your own terms.. The game will outlast your company's instance... This is a long-term trend... Even my own 2 years in game? -- Yeah I've seen at most, x4 GOVs, with their own corps, basically burn out, within 2 years, on each popular planet.......... [24-Oct-24 10:17 PM] jcheung#0000 > This need not be some communal benefit. the goal of this to my understanding is to bolster the development of the antares community.... [24-Oct-24 10:18 PM] tanda#0000 helps to keep in mind that the Devs may be looking for long term content for us to engage with [24-Oct-24 10:18 PM] tanda#0000 so they've cooked up a 3+ year public works project [24-Oct-24 10:18 PM] marat_sh#0000 So my suggestion to pick a "Collector" a person who will manage the spreadsheet of contributions (AIC/items). They will hold all of the materials themselves. We can make a vote who that person should be (you gotta be always online, be a long term player and be in a good relationship with people here and any other old players from other factions). People how donated AIC/items could have a special role on this server if they donate 10mil/50mil/100mil+. For other stuff "Collector" would aquare taxes from ANT planets to purchase items through contracts or CX [24-Oct-24 10:19 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yep.... Just notes from me... All your current GOVs, on the popular planets, basically walked into fully developed SST x10, INFx 10, PAR x10, and WAR x20 starter planets....... [24-Oct-24 10:19 PM] jcheung#0000 > This whole project is a financial suicide... afaik we're not going door to door and holding a knife to people's throats and saying "donate or else" it's all volunteer based, so you only donate what you can afford to lose unless i missed a memo? [24-Oct-24 10:20 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Nothing at all was needed to be developed.. since it already was... Since those who built it, done it long before, and then quit. [24-Oct-24 10:20 PM] razenpok#0000 Yes, *and* this in part is a vanity project [24-Oct-24 10:20 PM] jcheung#0000 i mean. it's a much more useful E-Peen [24-Oct-24 10:21 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 E-Peens are meant to be "blown".... **"cough"**. 😛 [24-Oct-24 10:22 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I'm not making the jokes, more serious than that ^^^ LOL [24-Oct-24 10:22 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Use em, or #lose-em. [24-Oct-24 10:23 PM] pi3142718#0000 LS-231b is hot, which is going to fundamentally limit its success independent of gateway construction [24-Oct-24 10:23 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Hmm, why is it hot? [24-Oct-24 10:24 PM] tanda#0000 it's a TSH planet [24-Oct-24 10:24 PM] pi3142718#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1299212052270678046/image0.jpg?ex=6814e3c3&is=68139243&hm=bb4777fd0f30cb1c68b2f5afa9cddca5265cb2b8e994d1227529097ffe43d378& [24-Oct-24 10:25 PM] pi3142718#0000 I’m proud to say that 100% of the population of LS-231c and LS-231d has voted in the above poll lol [24-Oct-24 10:26 PM] pi3142718#0000 I think LS-231c is a good target for the gateway. It’s only high pressure and the closer you are to the center of the system, the faster the travel times to other planets. [24-Oct-24 10:26 PM] finestone#0000 https://tenor.com/view/i-dont-have-the-foggiest-clue-whats-going-on-here-franklin-finbar-mouse-kevin-hart-jumanji-the-next-level-gif-16164687 {Embed} https://tenor.com/view/i-dont-have-the-foggiest-clue-whats-going-on-here-franklin-finbar-mouse-kevin-hart-jumanji-the-next-level-gif-16164687 https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/ogSfzAs2l0jj8JqeoyJtIvEzmmtxG-XcMjJcbzarIJM/https/media.tenor.com/o6hyX7rqXCMAAAAe/i-dont-have-the-foggiest-clue-whats-going-on-here-franklin-finbar.png [24-Oct-24 10:26 PM] pi3142718#0000 Although my preference is for it to remain construction COGC… [24-Oct-24 10:27 PM] tanda#0000 I'll join you and lend my vote to that [24-Oct-24 10:27 PM] pi3142718#0000 Already got a decent number of TECs too [24-Oct-24 10:27 PM] tanda#0000 oh good, at this rate I need *another* INS planet [24-Oct-24 10:27 PM] pi3142718#0000 Even if they’re not happy [24-Oct-24 10:28 PM] pi3142718#0000 We’ve got 8 good construction planets in the BEN/ANT area, come join me on all of them [24-Oct-24 10:28 PM] tanda#0000 I'm about to start expanding towards BEN, yeah {Reactions} 💚 [24-Oct-24 10:29 PM] tanda#0000 next steps are Tiezendor which is just meh [24-Oct-24 10:29 PM] pi3142718#0000 Tiezendor? [24-Oct-24 10:30 PM] tanda#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1299213409451245618/image.png?ex=6814e507&is=68139387&hm=adb3ebaf5e4d63f3d3d99edae30913a6dc19f1dd52218f55ea9cd235d5d3e20e& {Reactions} 👍 [25-Oct-24 12:04 AM] evov#0000 I agree with the direction of this sentiment. So I started work on a project in that direction a few weeks ago. While I hope that the donation based charity effort being championed here works.... more gates is more better... I feel like it's worth perusing an alternative path forward. Same goal - To develop the greater Antares region, with gateways playing a role in the long term benefit/advantage of the region. Just a different path of working towards that goal. [25-Oct-24 12:18 AM] pi3142718#0000 Not all quit. Many are still around in some capacity, but it’s clear that managing a government was more of a hassle than it was worth. Hopefully that’s a little better now with parliaments, but it’s still not completely balanced [25-Oct-24 12:18 AM] pi3142718#0000 With the responsibility in theory spread out between 5 people [25-Oct-24 12:20 AM] pi3142718#0000 What’s your alternative approach? [25-Oct-24 12:22 AM] evov#0000 Start up a group of planets in/near a good gateway location. Put higher than usual tax rates on the planets, and aim to fund a gateway with tax revenue (pooled together from the collection of planets) [25-Oct-24 12:25 AM] evov#0000 I've spent about 30mil in the last couple weeks building up a group of 5 planets (plus the cost of my own permits/bases etc ). And dedicated another 30mil worth of ships to it, so it has logistical support available if people need it. [25-Oct-24 07:14 AM] archielvahr#0000 Is that "front the money for the gateway, because it will spur development of those planet afterward?" or "entice people to join the planets because there will later be a gateway there?" [25-Oct-24 07:33 AM] evov#0000 Fundamentally, it's just an attempt at closing the loop on the funding/control concerns I have that we've talked about previously. Getting the gateway/s paid for by the people on the planet (or collection of planets), controlled/owned collectively by all the people on those planets (not by small % of the population of the planet being contributors/owners), and the primary beneficiary's of the gateway would be . . . . the people with bases on those planets. It's not a solution that works for all possible gateway locations. For example the CX based Gates will be on existing high pop planets would probably not work very well for this system. But when we're looking at wanting a network of 16+ gates .... I feel like having a variety of funding/building options can only be a benefit. [26-Oct-24 07:49 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Planetary development is mostly a strategy based thing. There's a reason that pretty much all Triple-Green planets within any CX vicinity have been taken, for one purpose or another. There is a general ~60-70% COGC matching rates regarding bases on the more filled worlds, but that's just up to bunch of considerations, which are player determined, yet they're usually aligned with greater-Prun consensus regarding whats the best thing to do here?! Lower up-front capital investment requirements -- with enough time and player interest, any place can be started to run towards a particular COGC objective. And with more player base densities on a given planet, the more of a tax revenue volume that can be applied to other things. Regarding only PRO licensees, the lower tiered bunch of them are usually triple-permitting, or saving their permits for future applications, due to the ever constant shipping crunch. Since Deimos has been maxed out for PROs who haven't gotten a base there already, and Harmonia will be coming soon.... Players may start to look in other directions for expansion potential. [26-Oct-24 08:08 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Fundamentally, it's entirely about the player counts within ANT space, if we'd like to start laundering some tax revenues to help keep these gateway projects afloat. Mo' Players = Mo' Bases = Mo' Profits. You might think that the numbers we've construed regarding gateway costs might be exceedingly high and unsustainable, as largely only like what, 5 people have pledged materials so far... But those individual pledges amount to only about ~1 month of post-sale operating profits, if you're just starting out on the A-fab HQ upgrade progression. Get a few more contributors, and tag a few more months of profits to gateway contributions, and you'll easily have a projection of how many gateway routes can be installed, every year. [26-Oct-24 08:15 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 If someone can volunteer some in-game time, I'll need a few decently sized planets worth of production aggregates, to start issuing my tax base projections for planets. That info could help with Evov's stuff, or other places as well. But most of this stuff is just a few intertwined process flows of player activity: - Player operations cycling through opportunity costs between whatever to produce, where at, yielding weekly profit figures. - Planetary tax bases, yielding ever growing discretionary funding, to use for whatever, after POPR/POPI is up-kept - Discretionary spending, regarding HQ permit upgrades, and new ship purchases, which fund many other non-essential player bases, tendering a second set of ~quarterly profit figures. - And by mid-summer '25, you'll have another set of revenue figures from the gateways, whose new mechanics will also feed into the aforementioned discretionary spending, per more ships, and bases. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1299723110387417098/Screenshot_from_2024-10-24_14-01-54.png?ex=6814c579&is=681373f9&hm=e8c61f8f600724804905306b7a079709d8c006ce96eea6df0b546bf748f42004& [26-Oct-24 09:59 AM] evov#0000 "That info could help with Evov's stuff" - Nah, I'm good thanks. At the moment, population growth on the planets is the limiting factor. So I'd be interested in tips on fast pop growth from Archiel or Rise, or other experienced govs of note. Not much point in bringing more players onto the planets without the pop available for them. For anyone interested in the future, IA-151 is the system in question with a few nearby points of interest highlighted on the map. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1299749197255544934/Area151-a.jpg?ex=6814ddc4&is=68138c44&hm=5cb2fc63011d7cb1a129acae41e24ed64da29b16532f89a84d0b3c0bd32b6e78& {Reactions} 👀 [26-Oct-24 03:21 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 It's a chicken, or the egg, sort of thing.. Player bases need POPR, but POPRs cannot sustain themselves without base drops, which cut down on unemployment rates, keep your happiness levels high, cut down on the need for higher tier upkeep, and provide a tax base. **It's more of a marketing issue.... Since you've got COGC programs running, people will eventually notice the listings on Prunplanner/FIO, and they'll run their numbers to see if your planets are good enough for their needs....** I'd cut the Base Establishment fees to like 2-3mil, and go really heavy on the WAR/LR fees rates though. A 10mil Base Establishment fee basically advertises to other peeps that these planets are for "my personal use". PIO--> TEC POPRs don't need significant unemployment pools. Any short term issues can be fixed with an immigration program. ENG/SCIs usually get constant growth through the inherent education rates, but without significant TEC employment figures, the weekly turnover rate is tiny, so immigration programs for them will be needed, once there is a need. [26-Oct-24 05:50 PM] archielvahr#0000 Peeked at the planets, they look on target. Running all the right programs [26-Oct-24 05:50 PM] archielvahr#0000 You can cheese them up a bit more with comfort and culture, even if it's just low tech workers, they still appreciate it. It's a very aggressive choice to do that though. [26-Oct-24 05:51 PM] archielvahr#0000 And unemployment will be a driver of unhappiness when pops are very small, so something to keep in mind. Paying for bases from other players can be the cheapest way to deal with that. [26-Oct-24 05:52 PM] archielvahr#0000 IA-151D will need to get all those engineers from eng immigration eventually. [26-Oct-24 05:53 PM] evov#0000 Yea, got them all set up like this. Some of them aren't showing yet due to being in the first week. I've got a couple of people currently waiting on pop growth / my immigration programs to work through before they put bases down. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1299868563074711602/image.png?ex=6814a42f&is=681352af&hm=873e78dbdfbbcc76454836d3f0069184d2ac31ff2a7f276bb4c4828634b2fcf1& [26-Oct-24 05:54 PM] archielvahr#0000 Oh yeah very nice [26-Oct-24 08:25 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 And so, the newbro exodus from ANT's core worlds begins. All due to #plot-creep. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1299906839106027530/Screenshot_from_2024-10-26_18-18-43.png?ex=6814c7d5&is=68137655&hm=72579447e665db6d584d7549d329d223caceb2876f5e5cbe0e2b4ad182df1b68& [26-Oct-24 08:37 PM] zillatron#0000 how does 1 person saying they want to setup on a metallurgy planet in any way constitute an exodus? :thonking: {Reactions} 👆 (2) [26-Oct-24 08:46 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 The huge focus, for quite some time, was on Deimos, since it was so nice... Now the planet is filled, and people are looking at other choices. [26-Oct-24 08:48 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Since ALO/AL is mostly dependent on resource densities on whatever planet its to be found on.... New arrivals to ANT will now look towards Nascent, as an off-COGC AL base, or elsewhere if they're lucky. That fits my definition of an "exodus". [26-Oct-24 08:51 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Both of us got on Deimos, before the plot creep set in, so we don't have to notice it, but new arrivals to ANT, considering their options, will be dealing with these things. Give it like 12 months of more fresh arrivals to Prun. [26-Oct-24 08:53 PM] zillatron#0000 not sure i agree with your definition of an exodus, but thanks for elaborating all the same [26-Oct-24 09:07 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 It's the same in the other places... Maybe not for HUB or ARC... Once the Triple Green worlds get filled, all new bases will have to start considering the Single or Double Red worlds, for expansion. Shipping concerns are key for BASIC/PROs... They'll either have to start buying more ships, FTL or STL (with gateways), to just even do business, so there'll be quite a lag time between the newer people having the funding to expand, then actually do expand, and start selling their production with each other or on the CX. My best guess, is that you won't see the results of my predictions for like another 2 years... Since people will be able to go to diversify with Electronica, Nike, Aceland, Elon, KI-401 or else... But you will see the market realities sooner, since people will now try to leverage the surplus markets for production, without having adequate I/Os to justify internal stuff. ------ The gateways will be involved in this sort of "boiling pot" arrangement. And of course, older players will largely be unaffected by this. But I'm doing an aggregate approach.... I.e. We have our friends.... and then there's the other 2k+ players in Prun. 🙂 [27-Oct-24 01:30 AM] zillatron#0000 I’m not sure we’re still having the same conversation but…um, cool story. {Reactions} 👍 [27-Oct-24 02:26 AM] pxlfox.#0000 I would love to see the universe expand. [27-Oct-24 02:27 AM] pxlfox.#0000 This game is 4 years old and except some brave adventurers, the outer planets are still not colonised [27-Oct-24 02:29 AM] pxlfox.#0000 If feels natural to me, that the core systems get crowded one day and people try to expand. It happens in real life, too. Also, the game would be kinda static, if all people would just sit on the same planet {Reactions} 💯 [27-Oct-24 03:37 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 We'll get on the same page, eventually. [27-Oct-24 03:59 AM] evov#0000 Sometimes it's just more productive to start a fresh page and limit involvement of it to people who are capable of staying on it. {Reactions} 😅 [27-Oct-24 05:04 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 **For just this channel?**.... ~400-500 days in-game... R-fab, or A-fab HQ upgrade progressions, plus multiple ships purchased/built, to be **qualified to contribute**. A second qualification is to those who will be **willing to contribute, without immediate returns**. My suggestions, since anyone in both brackets, can eat up the production costs, without too many issues. Anyone else... You're better off organising in a separate Gateway production channel. **You'll likely be looking at ADI issued grants, + private loans, + some sort of shipping arrangement, all at a net return of some form of profitable earnings (especially with the R/A+ fabs and materials).** <--- (Evov, potential idea, or no?) Project coordinators? Do whatever you want... You've got like 8 months. LOL (I'm seriously joking around).... {Reactions} 👎 [27-Oct-24 05:13 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 But if we're going to be individually nit'picked, regarding our selection of terms, definitions, strategic criteria, or experimental goals?.... Yeah, this update won't even be out for another **~8 months**. Some of the things I mention in here aren't readily true, but I'm just projecting into the future. 😛 State your clarification goals. I'll do my best to tighten up my language... Others will contribute their own stuff. I take quite some time to read everything in this chat, since there's serious investments involved. I'm pretty sure others do as well. Am I going to beat anyone on it? Nope... But you did get a **'second**, per the usual chatter, and I'm just offering consecutive opinion. [27-Oct-24 05:17 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I blame dev #greed..... They could have just focused on multi-corp HQs.... And would have been done with this development cycle much sooner, than with these gateways... And the tangible benefits to MOST people, in-game, would have been readily seen, since it's something that we're all familiar with. [27-Oct-24 07:34 AM] razenpok#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1300075231754588170/Screenshot_from_2024-10-24_20-41-19.png?ex=6814bbe9&is=68136a69&hm=2cc5791ca2d6a0df8d73f950a7ccc8bffa9761dd28af16ba0b65573a40b5f242& {Reactions} 😂 (2) [27-Oct-24 10:10 AM] pi3142718#0000 Wait, why are we limiting people from this channel? We’ll need voters on every planet to keep control of gateways. As far as I can tell, the only people sending long paragraphs of semi-off topic messages fall into your first category [27-Oct-24 04:31 PM] jvaler#0000 @scintillating_iridescence a number of members have expressed concerns over the essay-length tangents being posted both in #agc-general and elsewhere in the server. they make it difficult to read what other people are trying to say and they derail conversations away from topics people actually bring up. i'm going to have to ask you to please stop such behavior. people make jokes about brevity, but it's more of an actual request. i feel that much of what you have to say can be condensed into much less paragraphs. when typing something up, consider if it is necessary and relevant to the topic at hand. [27-Oct-24 05:05 PM] hernanduer#0000 The main issue is that those planets are generally inferior [27-Oct-24 05:05 PM] hernanduer#0000 In resources, not just base cost [27-Oct-24 05:06 PM] hernanduer#0000 There are a lot of good ones out there, but they're also very isolated. The universe basically suffers from having all the core worlds being too _generally_ good even if they're not the very best [27-Oct-24 05:07 PM] hernanduer#0000 Gateways would be a feasible thing to those planets but they're also not so much better that it would pay off... Idk really how to fix it [27-Oct-24 05:08 PM] hernanduer#0000 They'd have to heavily manipulate resource density in random places so that the whole universe is more evenly distributed, instead of best planets for climate AND really good planets for resources being in the core [27-Oct-24 05:13 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I'm 100% sure were not. Gateways need voters, and funding/production. I'm just exploring the potential scope. [27-Oct-24 05:18 PM] marat_sh#0000 My main issue with frontier colonization that you still need to get to CX to sell... LM are too clunky to use as main trade [27-Oct-24 05:25 PM] pi3142718#0000 I don’t think this is the main issue. We have 2 CXs located in some of the best outer region clusters, but they’re still devoid of activity. [27-Oct-24 06:41 PM] hernanduer#0000 Yeah, markets will follow, and LM is clunky but I'm sure it'd be used more if there was just the demand [27-Oct-24 06:41 PM] hernanduer#0000 There's just not any real reason to do it, #1 FEO planet 20 jumps away or #7 planet 2 jumps with only a few unit/d difference [27-Oct-24 06:42 PM] hernanduer#0000 Needs more difference [27-Oct-24 06:43 PM] getonthetrain#0000 Maybe if after a certain amount of time or extraction, resource levels decreased down to a minimal level to simulate resource depletion? [27-Oct-24 06:44 PM] getonthetrain#0000 not immediately down to minimum, but a slow decrease [27-Oct-24 06:44 PM] getonthetrain#0000 at some point, those outer planets might start looking tasty [27-Oct-24 06:45 PM] getonthetrain#0000 maybe governors could spend money in a resource program to find more and keep the levels up [27-Oct-24 06:46 PM] getonthetrain#0000 but hey, this is ADI Gateway and not the place [27-Oct-24 07:21 PM] archielvahr#0000 On the topic of gateway coordination, next up, I'd like to finalize the prices. I intend for them to be stable through the project. Adjusting them is possible, but likely to upset folks, so nailing them down in advance would be best. I have proposed prices listed on the "Gateway Prices" list. Basically I'm looking for feedback on the relative values of each item. These are calculated primarily via base-area-days. The PP30D Universe prices are listed, but you can compare them to any price index or internal prices you would like to. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=543632564#gid=543632564 Also the ledger sheet is set up to receive pledges of cash contributions. If someone doesn't want to manage their own cash contribution, as a project coordinator, I will coordinate the purchases of the most-needed gateway products with the cash contribution and see that each contributor is credited appropriately. After wrapping up feedback on the "Gateway Prices" list, we can begin a wider solicitation of gateway products. {Embed} https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=543632564 ADI Gateway Co-op https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/UtLmoPqtiZiL8po2ttrBFnBI63F1H3qziqq_o2VjrWc/https/lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docs/AHkbwyI7EkKg7uGu9JvBKayKrbzn5-HCuOYTTaZ6qF_-c-nzBr0Vmnh6P-nc-B8RSGmIfz8OZdh6VJXE-D8yLk5Gvy0dZCsz8ZvfEM-apSGxsGQvrJUh4lwu%3Dw1200-h630-p [27-Oct-24 09:23 PM] pi3142718#0000 I think setting the methodology is sound, but I don’t know if setting prices ~4-8 months in advance is viable {Reactions} 👆 (2) [27-Oct-24 09:39 PM] archielvahr#0000 Well, the base-area-day numbers won't change unless they rebalance recipes. {Reactions} 👍 [27-Oct-24 09:54 PM] evov#0000 For better or worse, this seems to be the default town square for gateway discussions. It's the place where potential groups from different regions come together to collaborate and collectively discuss/resolve potential road blocks. Now that there's a firm goal in place for the first gateway link planned... would it make sense to spin off a channel specifically for the plans relating to that gateway link, while maintaining a channel for general gateway discussion / collaboration etc ? [27-Oct-24 10:00 PM] archielvahr#0000 Well I always thought of this as the ADI coop channel. But separating the universe-wide planning vs the coop planning would be fine with me. [27-Oct-24 10:09 PM] evov#0000 I'm not aware of any HRT or BEN based groups planning anything at this stage, and there's the very real potential (hopefully) of the ANT region getting more than 1 gateway. [27-Oct-24 10:16 PM] archielvahr#0000 I do expect us to have several links queued up by release. [27-Oct-24 10:24 PM] moke.#0000 fwiw, I was looking at getting into SP production specifically for gateway projects like these [27-Oct-24 10:32 PM] pi3142718#0000 Cash contributions might need a scaling factor applied to align things, but I think distributing shares for material contributions is valid {Reactions} 👍 [27-Oct-24 10:35 PM] pi3142718#0000 Are we sure a planet cannot have multiple gateways constructed on it? I don’t think it’s clear from the dev logs. [27-Oct-24 10:52 PM] archielvahr#0000 One planet can have multiple gateways [27-Oct-24 10:53 PM] archielvahr#0000 They did confirm that. I believe in the forum post. {Reactions} 👍 [27-Oct-24 11:13 PM] pi3142718#0000 Have we confirmed a destination planet in LS-231? Still partial to C due to less extreme climate and being closer to the center [27-Oct-24 11:22 PM] archielvahr#0000 I learn towards Aratora but not strongly. [27-Oct-24 11:52 PM] finestone#0000 Nice i am also getting into SP production! [28-Oct-24 03:59 PM] razenpok#0000 In the spreadsheet, we have planned 44.54% of the total construction cost, but we only have 22.71% of the shares allocated :peperead: [28-Oct-24 04:20 PM] tanda#0000 That's probably because I added some commitments a week or so ago [28-Oct-24 04:22 PM] razenpok#0000 Not really, you are included in the total sum [28-Oct-24 05:29 PM] archielvahr#0000 That was a mistake. The "total shares" represents two gateways, but the "goal" listed there was only one gateway. [28-Oct-24 05:29 PM] archielvahr#0000 The actual numbers are 22.27% planned contributions by PP 30d price, and 22.71% by shares. {Reactions} 👍 [28-Oct-24 05:29 PM] archielvahr#0000 I have fixed the sheet, thanks for pointing that out. [28-Oct-24 05:31 PM] archielvahr#0000 My plan regarding cash contributions is to spend contributed cash on the materials that offer the "most shares per AIC"- with the caveat that they need to be available. Some things are just going to be tough to get at any price. So since the whole market is fuzzy, cash contributors will either need to buy their own mats and donate them, or just trust that I won't make totally moronic choices with their cash {Reactions} 👍 [28-Oct-24 05:33 PM] archielvahr#0000 There is no "cash-to-shares" conversion except via purchase of materials actually needed for the current gateway project [28-Oct-24 05:37 PM] jcheung#0000 I would make it material only [28-Oct-24 05:37 PM] jcheung#0000 You have enough to track [28-Oct-24 05:41 PM] archielvahr#0000 That's fair. I don't really mind it. I think there are a lot of old prun players sitting on 100m, 200m, or more in liquid cash who would like to see it used somehow, but aren't gonna chase down a ton of orders for random metals or whatever. [28-Oct-24 05:49 PM] archielvahr#0000 Plus I can delegate if it gets too much [28-Oct-24 07:11 PM] jcheung#0000 Ah. Yeah, then i would say it's worth whatever shares you can buy on current AI.1 ask price {Reactions} 👍 [29-Oct-24 01:00 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Since we're something like 8 months out from the updates (or earlier)... I've added an inflation-based price adjustment to the "Gateway - Prices" on the sheet, based off the PP30D values. (we're still behind like x2 months on Economy reports :/) They might not matter if we're basically on the same standard of stock conversion, but they should matter if CX ASK/BID rates get adjusted, due to player decisions, which will offer opportunities for AGC to buy what's needed at cheaper rates. Small gains with small mistakes. Big gains with big mistakes. -- The rest is good, imo. [29-Oct-24 01:41 AM] jvaler#0000 oh wait yeah economy reports have been missing haven't they [29-Oct-24 01:41 AM] jvaler#0000 i hadn't noticed lol [29-Oct-24 01:41 AM] jvaler#0000 i blame the driveway crane [29-Oct-24 01:46 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Molp is busy with irl stuff, iirc. Huge push for gateway stuff. It's easy to forget the fundamental concerns of most people (Am I earning enough to keep myself afloat, above consumable + repair + inflation **costs**) [29-Oct-24 04:16 AM] evov#0000 I've started producing gateway items, but the gateway project I'm working on likely won't be needing them for quite some time. So if anyone wants to "buy" into the Heph->LS231 project, I'll sell off some of my stock as needed. {Reactions} 👍 [29-Oct-24 04:02 PM] archielvahr#0000 I'm looking for more comments regarding the placement of the LS-231 gate. Aratora (LS-231b) or LS-231c are the two main contenders. [29-Oct-24 04:02 PM] archielvahr#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1300927740546912287/image.png?ex=68148a1f&is=6813389f&hm=c6465861d42b61c3bf0a610409ce4f3bafc7f373f3818fdc567187f205a3d185& [29-Oct-24 07:26 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 They're both good? *LS-231 a/d are on the same environmental requirements anyways. LS-231a is depreciated. LS-231d is running a CON COGC*. **LS-231b is a huge source of LST, with a RES COGC, which feeds PP1/2 BBH|BSE processes at LS-231c/d in CON COCGs, plus FE|AL imports**. BRM extraction (feeding REA/SOI work) on LS-231c has silly profits (like 225k daily), but that's because the CX rates are very high, which feeds into FIO integrated sheets (even without COGC bonuses). PP1/2 processes there have a ~36k AIC daily profit, without considering internal supply. Rates on LS-231c's RES COGC for LST/SIO are ~160k/40k daily - **shipping not included**.... [29-Oct-24 07:28 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 If you want to boost LST/SIO imports to ANT/BEN CX, go with LS-231b. If you want to boost BBH/BSE imports to the same, go with LS-231c. **My vote is with Aratora (LS-231b)** [29-Oct-24 07:32 PM] tanda#0000 both of them will likely be used. It's just a matter of which one we need a bunch of voting AGC members on to make sure the gates are solid [29-Oct-24 07:32 PM] tanda#0000 (speaking for myself, I'd slap CON bases on both of those badboys) [29-Oct-24 08:32 PM] marat_sh#0000 How does Fly path calculated for FTL departure/arrival? I've noticed it's usually in the middle of the system (between 3rd and 4th planet)... I might be wrong [29-Oct-24 09:42 PM] pi3142718#0000 Who’s going to use LS-231b for resource extraction? It’s a hot planet so will be super expensive, especially once TSH are in high demand for gateways [29-Oct-24 09:43 PM] pi3142718#0000 If you’re looking for lots of bases, a hot planet isn’t the way to go [29-Oct-24 09:45 PM] tanda#0000 apparently a couple people feel they want it to stay resource extraction [29-Oct-24 10:13 PM] jvaler#0000 EXT are relatively low on building count, so TSH isn't *as* bad as other possible industries {Reactions} 👍 [29-Oct-24 10:14 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yeah the devs are pushing SET/TEC/ENG+ production, with the gateway content long into the future. At least our initial gateway targets have TSH/PSH requirements not only as potential base build requirements, but also for the gateways themselves. [29-Oct-24 10:31 PM] archielvahr#0000 Before BL was available I had BTS rigs on Aratora. It wasn’t so bad. Looks like I see one voice in support of Aratora and a few others leaning towards SL-231c for the gate. [30-Oct-24 04:22 PM] akyantor#0000 I have a bias for Aratora, if only because I already have a base there, so could support maintaining control via an existing base. [31-Oct-24 09:28 AM] hernanduer#0000 I'd want to run something other than RE for BTS or LST, but I'd rather not impact a bunch of guys already there, so I think 231c [31-Oct-24 09:29 AM] hernanduer#0000 also just want to say I'm not sure where you keep getting this date from, they release on a biannual schedule, typically [31-Oct-24 09:29 AM] hernanduer#0000 I'd expect gateways in January or thereabouts [31-Oct-24 09:29 AM] hernanduer#0000 they do 2 content patches and 2 "balance" patches every year, so the content is biannual [31-Oct-24 12:51 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 {Embed} poll_question_text I have a base on...... victor_answer_votes 9 total_votes 13 victor_answer_id 1 victor_answer_text ZV-307c (Hephaestus) [31-Oct-24 01:18 PM] archielvahr#0000 Europeans kinda take all of December off though, right? so Jan sounds optimistic to me [31-Oct-24 01:19 PM] archielvahr#0000 Cause "flying through a gateway" is probably a month worth of blog posts or so. Just guessing there. [31-Oct-24 01:26 PM] realharvey#0000 all of December? No. Usually 1-2 Weeks [31-Oct-24 04:20 PM] jvaler#0000 @shinonomesciences please keep questions/conversations out of information channels [31-Oct-24 04:21 PM] shinonomesciences#0000 Sorry, I didn’t mean to post it on that one [31-Oct-24 04:21 PM] jvaler#0000 it happens ✅ [13-Nov-24 03:28 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Mmm, Archiel's plugging away at the #marketing.... T'is good. If anyone's got some spare time, idling on Prun... Can they just mock up some BLUs for the usual FTL ship metrics... Starter | WCB | LCB | VCB..... and the mass-market options that everyone's seeing on UFO and elsewhere --- FSE/QCR | WCB | LCB | VCB, and just grab some basic daily data, on ANT <--> BEN FTL transits, for like a week? (once daily, for all, for just 1 week)... [13-Nov-24 03:34 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I think the gateway fuel metrics have also been **mocked** up on the spreadsheet... We can fiddle with the gateway fuel requirements right now per the info posted on OOG site, and some quick maths. Assume some given **x** for resource densities on any Krypton planet around ANT. What sort of assumed PPUs for Krypton can be had? We'll be under the discretion of #dev Perlin noise metrics for those resource distributions... So it'll be random, but we can get differentials for whatever is to come. [13-Nov-24 03:34 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yes those. [13-Nov-24 03:35 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I have literally no time, due to like 50 side projects.... [13-Nov-24 03:36 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1306372160243372052/ancient-aliens1.jpg?ex=68149222&is=681340a2&hm=51d512b0e6768e2596aa5db18f1d45439b8348bf819025cd1de55c8d46abe3e0& [13-Nov-24 03:46 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Figures from the SF/FF + depreciation transit metrics above, can get plugged into a price ceiling for gateway tolls. Figures from **assumed** VF ppu's + transport, based on daily gateway usage, will then from the price floors for gateways. [13-Nov-24 03:48 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I think we've all beaten up any issue on the gateways completely. Some provisional metrics could be handy, since we've got like maybe 1-2 months on the minimum, to try to advocate for cheaper gateway costs on the forums or whatever. [14-Nov-24 05:20 PM] optimizedfunction#0000 Do we know anything about VF inputs? [14-Nov-24 05:22 PM] cptcoleslaw#0000 Yeah there's screenshots somewhere [14-Nov-24 05:23 PM] cptcoleslaw#0000 uses a natural resource that isn't released yet though [14-Nov-24 05:23 PM] cptcoleslaw#0000 I'm thinking about keeping a full base of bfabs on hand on a ship just to fly out and build as soon as a tap is known, lol [14-Nov-24 06:24 PM] optimizedfunction#0000 Yes, it was kryptonite or something like that [14-Nov-24 06:25 PM] optimizedfunction#0000 lol I should do that too :thonk: [14-Nov-24 06:26 PM] optimizedfunction#0000 My new goal is to be #1 on ALL fuel leaderboards [14-Nov-24 06:26 PM] optimizedfunction#0000 hehe [14-Nov-24 07:02 PM] cptcoleslaw#0000 noice [14-Nov-24 07:11 PM] tanda#0000 https://discord.com/channels/1183243037430796339/1293249263333146755/1293288361116827778 [14-Nov-24 07:11 PM] tanda#0000 obligatory post again [14-Nov-24 11:26 PM] thegravycompanygc#0000 Late to the game here. Looks like I can either contribute materials or just plan old money. Sign up with the linked googlesheet? [14-Nov-24 11:43 PM] archielvahr#0000 Welcome! Essentially yes! Details for how the program works are here: https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/adi-gateway-cooperative/ {Embed} https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/adi-gateway-cooperative/ ADI Gateway Cooperative | OOG Capital Management The ADI Gateway cooperative is a regional organization dedicated to the construction and operation of a gateway network. https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/mbZ_dki_BooFwq7JxIKLRGrrCM38r8xVFua3aJGj76E/https/oogcapitalmanagement.com/images/gateway-okay-narrow.png [14-Nov-24 11:44 PM] archielvahr#0000 I recieved my first cash donation, and we have some other promises in store. I think we are still quite a ways out for the actual release date, so I'm not actively soliciting anything yet. [14-Nov-24 11:46 PM] archielvahr#0000 We will likely plan at least one more pair before the release date. [15-Nov-24 12:36 AM] evov#0000 In case anyone wanted to buy components to contribute to the project, this is my current CX holdings for building gateways. IMM / PSH / RSH production has started - just haven't shipped any back to a CX yet, but production capacity for all currently available parts is rolling. It's unlikely that the tax funded gateway project I'm working on will be needing these parts before the Heph-LS231 link, so hit me up if any of them look like they'll be a bottleneck for this project. {Reactions} 👍 [15-Nov-24 12:45 AM] evov#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1306872755257610260/image.png?ex=681512d9&is=6813c159&hm=2cff5ce0c825318eebdcaebac71f0d268c21bc7a3499d37bcc876f288f6bf8ab& [15-Nov-24 09:47 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Hmm. So I was letting the issues of long-term gateway funding .... ferment and stew in my rotting brain for about a month, and I think I've come up with a potential business idea to be used with Liquidity contributions, coupled with expanding Antares economic activity, and player interaction into the gatway hubs, or special planet projects that might be around. However, I'm no area expert outside of intensive agricultural and basic consumable production, so someone should work through the metrics of this "idea", at least on the I/O and profitability side... [15-Nov-24 09:53 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I glanced through the current pledges, and there seem to be some slack, at least on the SP | CBL things. I then was reminded, that those things are a part of the NPC MMs all around.... What if, we could setup some rather unorthodox MM projects for these things with the pledged liquidity... Given standard weekly payments for permit usage, build/repair + consumable costs, outsourced shipping, and whatnot included for a project member willing to contribute permits and ques.... While also sourcing excess stocks from members here involving those inputs, or surplus market supplies -- if not full 20 person systemic designs. [15-Nov-24 09:59 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 The noted items: * ECA | CBL; SP for gateway [Stock && Revenues] * APF | ADS; COM for gateway [Stock} -- WR; LIS; LOG; NV1 for gateway [Revenues] * SE/SL | IMM for gateway [Stock, and intermediaries for APF inputs] -- EDC/IDC for gateway [Revenues] All three can be toggled... Meaning if we need something for another #serial gateway, we can just toggle the revenue production, into a stock production. If we're full, back to MM revenue production. The value conversions for all of that will be tricky -- I'm just dropping this for some alpha testing if people wanna look into it. [16-Nov-24 02:43 PM] archielvahr#0000 The gateway map tool has been upgraded with a new feature! You can now draw multiple gateways at once, so you don't have to stitch together screenshots! There's a "Clear Gateways" button to reset what is drawn. [16-Nov-24 08:31 PM] archielvahr#0000 https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/map/ {Embed} https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/map/ OOG Prosperous Universe Map OOG Prosperous Universe Map - An interactive map for the Prosperous Universe game https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/ql9MbBt7a1i_ms-7vTDNkDlZrWIgdHpcbQtxx_tcYBw/https/oogcapitalmanagement.com/images/computer-console-narrow.png [16-Nov-24 08:32 PM] archielvahr#0000 Also I've been able to connect with a few more key parties and have finalized LS-231c as the planet for the first gateway link with Heph. We have full support of the current inhabitants. What will happen next on the planet: * We'll drop maybe 5+ bases to secure the governorship * Build up the sci population to support AAFs (Which will include some popi buildings and probably upgrade the WAR to 2k) * Expect to keep the COGC as construction, but I'd be supportive of a scheduled swap to Manuf during the AAF construction. The GWS must be built on-site that's 40d of AAF. The 5x SST is 1500t each and will probably be made on site, that's 10d of AAF time. The TOR will probably be made onsite and that's 40d of WEL time, so construction will be good there. PFGs will probably be built on Heph and brought in. A few of us will be dropping our first bases there to start building up experts. As the population grows, we'll be happy to take more ADI inhabitants to ensure the security of the planet and the co-op's goals. [16-Nov-24 08:37 PM] tanda#0000 oh you need WEL bases on site? I was planning on dropping two bases of WEL in that system [16-Nov-24 08:38 PM] tanda#0000 Can I ask if you have a timeline on establishing these bases? [16-Nov-24 08:40 PM] evov#0000 GWS is the only part that's too big to be shipped as far as I'm aware. It requires other parts built from the same building (AAF) - so it kind of makes sense to build them all in the same place - but not required. [16-Nov-24 08:41 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yeah that sounds good. Once the first gateway link from ANT is established, I can start leveraging my STL fleets to haul in materials for subsequent gateway construction, or just to support the local industries that will likely be dropped, at minimal shipping costs (since yeah I have no use for my excess ships). [16-Nov-24 09:00 PM] evov#0000 I suspect there will be delays before the GWS can actually be built though. One of the longer chains from when the patch goes live I think looks like - Extract - RHO (3733 -unknown extraction time) Smelt - RHE ( 2334 - 8960 hrs @100% ) Advanced Smelt - ALR / WRH ( 2000 / 1000 - 6400 hrs @100% ) Weld - TOR (10 - 280hrs @100% ) +AAF - SST ( 5 - 240hrs @100%) AAF - GWS (5 - 955hrs @100% ) You don't need each stage to be 100% complete before starting the next stage, but you need "enough" of each stage produced to begin the next step. There's other steps that share AAF time that can't be started until the patch goes live, but a lot of the inputs can be pre-made for those steps. AAF's could Start making PFG/SST while waiting for the RHO/RHE/ALR/WRH/TOR to catch up. So the above chain seems like it'll be the main bottleneck re-time. So get ready to slap down Extractors asap, and have a fleet of Smelters and ASM's ready to go imo. [16-Nov-24 09:18 PM] archielvahr#0000 I dunno, probably tomorrow. I've got the permit free and everything other than that is a rounding error [16-Nov-24 09:20 PM] tanda#0000 alright, I can definitely say I will follow along after soon, lol {Reactions} 💯 [16-Nov-24 09:20 PM] archielvahr#0000 Workers show up fast when there's high unemployment so that all sounds good to me. [16-Nov-24 09:26 PM] archielvahr#0000 As for the times there... I am expecting a lot of people to go hard on the RHO right away. A lot of people have SMEs, so I think that will naturally distribute itself quickly and broadly. the alloy smelting also has a lot of capacity... so I'm hoping it's really not a terrible bottleneck. AAFs kinda don't make anything important, and there aren't a million of them in the world like there are SMEs/ ASMs. As for the PFGs that I'm making, I am gathering those parts already, so those can start immediately [16-Nov-24 09:28 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Mmm, well... The intermediate, and upstream I/Os for production can be already mapped. What we don't know is the downstream resource concentrations for the new material/resource densities. We can argue if this, or if that, but if we just plop down an arbitrary and set schedule, we can just pick a good option for the downstream stuff, on patch day when the FIO API gets updated. [16-Nov-24 09:37 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 And I wouldn't put money on the RHO stuff to be rather efficient regarding price dynamics on the CXs. The RHO --> RHE --> ALR/WRH processes are a "captive market", so the only ones to be interested in purchasing intermediate, or production stocks off anyone, or even the CX, would be those actively participating in gateway production. So it's not a B2C (business to consumer) market, rather a B2B (business to business) market, and so price inefficiencies (say if current CX listings are better than your PP metrics, you're gonna snatch those right away, and just wait for everyone else to burn out). [16-Nov-24 09:38 PM] jcheung#0000 I don't believe any of that is a current concern? [16-Nov-24 09:38 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Maybe people rush in from Day 0.. Get a bunch on the market... We snatch whatever is to be had on the cheap... Those early adopters get burned out due to detrimental price metrics + price competition... And then we'd be forced to setup our own permits to get what we need. [16-Nov-24 09:39 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yeah, if not, then just ignore me. [17-Nov-24 08:54 AM] hernanduer#0000 Keep in mind you don't _need_ SCI, just ENG. Stuff will go slower but it's easier to support that and grow it faster [17-Nov-24 10:02 AM] pi3142718#0000 But what’s a few SCI in the overall cost of the project? [19-Nov-24 07:02 AM] archielvahr#0000 Upgrades have begun: {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1308417010421731439/image.png?ex=6814c24c&is=681370cc&hm=5a0ab9a78bf5f9eb28ae7a77247bd14e9a54134b3232689cf9fa62069358f7b1& {Reactions} ❤️ (2) [22-Nov-24 01:15 AM] evov#0000 Updated list of gateway mats I'm holding if anyone needs - {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1309416871430459443/image.png?ex=681519bd&is=6813c83d&hm=ac606b9d7dfffba63bb2959522586bd926a0dabdc83f80575744072c451ee96e& [27-Nov-24 11:06 PM] superbadsounds#0000 Hello, everyone. I'm still pretty new, but I'm looking to contribute to the development of these gateways. I've been lurking in the shadows for a while, but I'm getting test server access to better experiment with the gateway mechanics before release, so I figured I might as well pop in and say hello {Reactions} 👋 [27-Nov-24 11:35 PM] archielvahr#0000 Welcome! 😄 [28-Nov-24 12:42 AM] superbadsounds#0000 Thanks! [28-Nov-24 10:20 AM] superbadsounds#0000 So I've got a system name to bestow, and was thinking LS-231 could be a good choice. [28-Nov-24 10:22 AM] superbadsounds#0000 I'm thing something Antares themed like "Scorpii" or maybe even "Betelgeuse", but I also don't hate the sound of "Midway" or even something as simple as "Gateway Alpha" [28-Nov-24 10:24 AM] superbadsounds#0000 I don't want to take the naming if someone else was wanting to do it, but I don't have many better ideas. I kinda just want to name it before any sort of Benten counter strike can occur after the New Antares incident lol. [28-Nov-24 10:24 AM] superbadsounds#0000 Thoughts? Objections? [28-Nov-24 10:45 AM] jcheung#0000 isn't there already a midway? {Reactions} 👍 [28-Nov-24 11:00 AM] pxlfox.#0000 There is a “Gateway” system in Mercante space. Molp is Gouverneur there 😂 [28-Nov-24 11:16 AM] tanda#0000 Perhaps call it "Citadel". It's a deep cut, but it's better than just calling it "Gateway" or something like that [28-Nov-24 11:59 AM] jvaler#0000 betelgeuse sounds nice, reminds me of endless sky [28-Nov-24 12:08 PM] superbadsounds#0000 The more I consider it, the more I like it. [28-Nov-24 04:23 PM] archielvahr#0000 Do we have a pile of unused Greek themed names? [28-Nov-24 04:23 PM] archielvahr#0000 Most of the good planet names in Antares space are named after Greek gods [28-Nov-24 04:34 PM] astra1414#0000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_mythological_figures {Embed} https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greek_mythological_figures List of Greek mythological figures The following is a list of gods, goddesses, and many other divine and semi-divine figures from ancient Greek mythology and ancient Greek religion. {Reactions} 👍 [28-Nov-24 09:12 PM] roche3950#0000 Was it decided yet? 😄 [29-Nov-24 12:33 AM] superbadsounds#0000 What do you guys think about "Styx", "Hippolyta", or "Sisyphus"? [29-Nov-24 12:33 AM] antisyntax#0000 i do like styx [29-Nov-24 12:40 AM] superbadsounds#0000 I'm also partial to "Orion".. [29-Nov-24 08:33 AM] pi3142718#0000 Or Erebos [29-Nov-24 08:35 AM] pi3142718#0000 Although I thought the theme of Antares was to name the systems Antares X and the planets after Greek gods [29-Nov-24 09:04 AM] roche3950#0000 I think a little diversity would be nice, though 🙂 [29-Nov-24 09:04 AM] roche3950#0000 Thalassa for instance — I’m also gonna get my names today [29-Nov-24 09:10 AM] roche3950#0000 Styx is definitely a cool name — could I also, relatedly, suggest Charon [29-Nov-24 09:14 AM] pi3142718#0000 I think Styx is better since it’s a system not a planet [29-Nov-24 09:14 AM] pi3142718#0000 And we’ve been naming planets after gods [29-Nov-24 09:15 AM] roche3950#0000 fair ^^ could go down as a planet name then [29-Nov-24 09:15 AM] pxlfox.#0000 Styx reminds me of Icarus (the game) [29-Nov-24 09:45 AM] roche3950#0000 Mental note for when there’s a planet that is extremely hot and very close to its star [29-Nov-24 09:47 AM] cptcoleslaw#0000 What about, and hear me out: Boberr {Reactions} 👆 [29-Nov-24 09:55 AM] roche3950#0000 What inspired the name Bober anyway? [29-Nov-24 09:55 AM] roche3950#0000 genuine curiosity [29-Nov-24 09:56 AM] jcheung#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1312084836084617296/image0.gif?ex=6814eb3a&is=681399ba&hm=fd904308a26d772771ea3e8f727b6e727577ff6d97bd39dddc48d8177772162f& [29-Nov-24 09:57 AM] roche3950#0000 ah so it is just that [29-Nov-24 09:58 AM] roche3950#0000 that’s the only thing I could find when looking it up 😅 [29-Nov-24 10:00 AM] jcheung#0000 I'm guessing [29-Nov-24 10:00 AM] jcheung#0000 It's polish for beaver [29-Nov-24 10:00 AM] jcheung#0000 And was a meme for a bit [29-Nov-24 10:09 AM] jvaler#0000 iirc nano is ukranian so it might have been more popular in their part of the internet [29-Nov-24 03:10 PM] evov#0000 Weekly update - Gateway parts produced + in stock + available for people to buy for other gateway projects as needed. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1312163750102437898/image.png?ex=68148bf8&is=68133a78&hm=c947fe770ff049b3fcf40442355e5bc71b5284e7aa00618d0b5f688eed12308c& [29-Nov-24 03:52 PM] archielvahr#0000 I'm also looking for more ADI people to build on LS-231c to help hold the planet. It's construction COGC for now, but will shift to manufacturing later. [29-Nov-24 05:32 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I suppose the same long-term constraints, that we've been slapping with other in these channels, for months, is probably limiting many from getting interested in LS-231c right now (ships, permits, money --- you 'know the usual stuff).... I'll sweeten the settlement concerns, in proffering x6 WCB STL ships, to be offered at minimal contractual cost (fuel + depreciation +transit fees + 10% margin), around ~March '2025, to anyone wanting to run profitable businesses on LS-231c, who's an ADI plebian. 😛 This will expand to 12 WCB STLs, once the BEN connection is had. [29-Nov-24 05:36 PM] jcheung#0000 mfg as the long term permanent? [29-Nov-24 05:39 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 That's done via any PRO/BASIC/TRIAL user voting on the COGC every ten days. It's not a GOV thing... But then again few are interested in the voting stuff anyways. Just don't make any noise, and I think no one will notice anything... They'll just pull FIO data, and make their decisions based off it. [29-Nov-24 05:39 PM] evov#0000 People get interested pretty quickly when their construction base is no longer getting a construction cogc. [29-Nov-24 05:40 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Yes, but there's only a few permits on that planet... Some diplomacy and networking would be advantageous in that regard, since you don't need to pull like 300+ base plot #s to just get the player names to send DMs to. [29-Nov-24 05:50 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 ------------ On a different note... I was reading the recent dev logs a few days ago, and there's apparently fulfilment timers for the GOV <--> Contractor contracts for Gateway construction? We could add another section on the front-page of the ADI sheet, to just tell what we're able to transfer, on a moments notice at a CX, so that we're not running on false assumptions, and not engaging on gateway conts that we won't be able to fulfil, reasonably, with just commodities on hand. It a'int a serious concern. [29-Nov-24 06:02 PM] jcheung#0000 gov has a say in it. i'm asking the person who's asking for help gaining a controlling share of the planet what the long term goal is, because it's pretty easy to assume that.... we'll be helping maintain cocg as well [29-Nov-24 06:17 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Mechanically, GOV doesn't ... But on a psychological | sociological | statistical perspective? Yeah, they probably do. If I were in your position, I'd advocate to adjust tax rates to fill COGC requirements + COGC votes, weekly. --- COGC upkeeps are minuscule, since they are rate'd on a per "active base" thing. You just need some inbound and cheap shipping, if no one will do that for you. It's slightly out of this channel's scope... But once the gateway update drops, with everything that we've discussed in here, and in the previous #ADI-thread.... Some of you will find yourselves in a parliamentary role, of some sort. Messy af? Yes. [29-Nov-24 06:41 PM] jcheung#0000 roh [29-Nov-24 06:41 PM] jcheung#0000 you're derailing things. [29-Nov-24 06:41 PM] jcheung#0000 i'm asking a simple question, and i just need a short response from archiel [29-Nov-24 06:43 PM] tanda#0000 If I remember correctly it is planned to stay Construction in the long run, but requires being flipped to manufacturing in order to expidite the new gate materials (SPT,GWS,TRS), due to large size making it necessary to build in place [29-Nov-24 06:46 PM] jcheung#0000 right, that's what a i want confimation on. what the long term plan was for the planet [29-Nov-24 06:46 PM] jcheung#0000 if it was staying mfg after, or swapping back to const [29-Nov-24 06:46 PM] .urpalhal#0000 Alr lemme upgrade me HQ 😝 [29-Nov-24 06:56 PM] pi3142718#0000 Good thing the only previous person on the planet just pulled their base 😛 [29-Nov-24 07:19 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 <--- has no mental filter, since I speak whatever's on my mind, and I like to give ideas out. Archiel's the team lead anyways. Go with what they state as fact. [29-Nov-24 07:35 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 But, per Tanda... If the COGC switch from CON --> MANF --> CON, is just a limited time thing... There is reason to just keep it as a CON COGC, and just avoid the negative sentiment from anyone's Prunner/rPrun logs that "get affected", and lets just eat the additional upkeep for the build? [29-Nov-24 07:36 PM] tanda#0000 Except the build in place items are more important. At that point we're talking about saving 25% of time rather than increasing profit for getting the final pieces built out as soon as possible [29-Nov-24 07:37 PM] tanda#0000 Especially considering ADI/AGC members dropping on that planet would be mostly doing it in order to hold down the planet and protect it from being flipped and redirected, I think most would be willing to eat the COGM increase [29-Nov-24 07:50 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 The build-in-place mats are a serious concern, since they're a bottle neck. You have me on that Tanda. However, last I checked on the dev-logs, the redirection is via motion, which is a 1-2 day thing? And any non-ADI gateway construction contract would last for a month, or so, before default termination. [29-Nov-24 07:51 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 It's my recommendation, that you'll get more on-site political favours, if you just reach out to the PMs on LS-231c (an of course Hephaestus), lay out our plans, and gather support/contention, and offer sounds ideas, should those GOVs remain in-tact for the long term. Beating up current GOVs, just cuz we might have a lot of money/commodities to spend/invest on a given planet, whose usual weekly GOV stuff will be almost entirely unaffected, is not a good idea, imo. But that's just me. :/ [29-Nov-24 07:51 PM] .urpalhal#0000 Well sounds like there’s currently no one on the planet? [29-Nov-24 07:52 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I blame devs for the gateway plans. It could be simpler with a different approach, but we're getting what's laid out. y_y [29-Nov-24 07:55 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Like 3 bases on LS-231c... More on LS-231b (Aratora). [29-Nov-24 08:01 PM] tanda#0000 Yeah, it's a very lightly populated world. Part of the point of setting it up [29-Nov-24 10:24 PM] archielvahr#0000 I'm open to discussion on that, but I am hoping for Manuf during the GWS production at least. [29-Nov-24 10:29 PM] archielvahr#0000 I am open to lock down any decisions or schedule that others would be interested in for the COGC on LS-231c. [29-Nov-24 10:31 PM] archielvahr#0000 PiBoy is the current gov, but he's downsizing and leaving the planet, so I'll take over governorship there. [29-Nov-24 10:32 PM] archielvahr#0000 And there are no other PMs or interested parties [29-Nov-24 10:41 PM] tanda#0000 I need construction planets in the long term {Reactions} 👍 [29-Nov-24 10:54 PM] pi3142718#0000 Me, melon, and Archiel are the only ones on the planet. Definitely open to switching to manufacturing to propel it to the planet with the first gateway [30-Nov-24 12:33 AM] superbadsounds#0000 Seems like Styx is the winner. I'll name her shortly! [30-Nov-24 12:34 AM] jvaler#0000 rip ;_; [30-Nov-24 12:43 AM] astra1414#0000 why the ;_; [30-Nov-24 12:55 AM] jvaler#0000 i liked orion better [02-Dec-24 10:15 AM] tanda#0000 There's some upkeep information for gateways that just got dropped in the new infrastructure dev log [02-Dec-24 10:38 AM] .shiva.#0000 https://cdn.prosperousuniverse.com/blog/2024-12-02/20241127.png {Embed} https://cdn.prosperousuniverse.com/blog/2024-12-02/20241127.png https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/gpTEdrjiLFohxiECdRX8ps3sXPLBRdRfeShklviY0Tg/https/cdn.prosperousuniverse.com/blog/2024-12-02/20241127.png {Reactions} 😬 [02-Dec-24 10:40 AM] .shiva.#0000 Which uh, I kinda hope is not final numbers [02-Dec-24 10:40 AM] tanda#0000 Yeah, that's a lot of KV [02-Dec-24 10:42 AM] .shiva.#0000 ~500k of just the pow/sp a week [02-Dec-24 10:44 AM] jcheung#0000 so who wants to start making TCL 😓 [02-Dec-24 10:44 AM] jcheung#0000 i have a base of WPLs i can easily swap to KV [02-Dec-24 10:44 AM] .shiva.#0000 ~~So yeah that's well over 2mil a week in upkeep?~~ [02-Dec-24 10:45 AM] tanda#0000 we'll have to wait for final numbers, but I'm eyeing ECA's for Phobos now for sure [02-Dec-24 10:47 AM] .shiva.#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1313184668639825960/Screenshot_20241202-084641.png?ex=6814f706&is=6813a586&hm=6d7541a775efc18ea5a3416a8b7dbbe5d7c9adcb41709898b7062375cf68294e& [02-Dec-24 10:49 AM] moke.#0000 Glad my gamble on SP being upkeep too has paid off 😅 [02-Dec-24 10:49 AM] tanda#0000 oh nvm, I missed that 1 KV makes 100 SPT [02-Dec-24 10:49 AM] .shiva.#0000 Same [02-Dec-24 10:50 AM] .shiva.#0000 So yeah more on the order of 500-600k [02-Dec-24 10:53 AM] jcheung#0000 more reasonable [02-Dec-24 10:54 AM] tanda#0000 That is still a lot of SP and POW [02-Dec-24 10:55 AM] .shiva.#0000 Yeah, the build takes a ton of sp as well. I've been kinda looking at expanding into it [02-Dec-24 11:06 AM] marat_sh#0000 Massive TCL production is up on my list anyway {Reactions} 👀 [02-Dec-24 11:14 AM] marat_sh#0000 it's gonna take a moment though 😅 [02-Dec-24 11:14 AM] marat_sh#0000 I don't take loans [02-Dec-24 11:22 AM] sidepipe#0000 It’s never too late to start taking loans! 😄 [02-Dec-24 11:24 AM] marat_sh#0000 I make a good amount I should be able to make first TCL base in a week or so [02-Dec-24 11:24 AM] marat_sh#0000 It's just I've just finished expanding HAL extraction to ~850/d [02-Dec-24 11:25 AM] jcheung#0000 ~~competing with HAL for HAL?~~ [02-Dec-24 11:26 AM] marat_sh#0000 Not competing 😅 just for future since EPO and TCL will be my main outputs [02-Dec-24 11:35 AM] tanda#0000 regardless of how much HAL HAL makes, he can't supply everybody [02-Dec-24 11:57 AM] archielvahr#0000 Oof [02-Dec-24 11:58 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Those upkeep costs, were entirely unexpected. Dev is likely trying to push SET/TEC utilisation, via long-term means, even more. I'd recommend re-evaluating cost indexes for gateway construction/long-term upkeep..... Dev seems to be pushing long-term, STL based transport incentives, for outlier base production, over STL/FTL transit incentives. [02-Dec-24 12:00 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 If there is a gateway spawned in the test server.... Someone let me know. [02-Dec-24 12:06 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah that adds a bit of "ouch" to the tenuous ROI situation. The SPT is cheap, I have it at $323/u. POW at 6k, SP at 3k, SEA at 100.. Around 500k like Ielisa said... I don't mind the upkeep but we're very unsure about the value a gateway is going to generate [02-Dec-24 12:16 PM] .shiva.#0000 Starting to feel like negative value tbh lol [02-Dec-24 12:17 PM] .shiva.#0000 FF isn't that expensive, ship time is more so, but it feels like the tolls would need to be *very* high to cover the cost of running/fueling the gateway, let alone giving ROI on the gateway build itself [02-Dec-24 12:28 PM] tanda#0000 Well, let's just hope it's not final numbers [02-Dec-24 06:08 PM] realbandit#0000 Yeah the POW is the only concern there - SPT and SEA are tiny quantities, and the SP is already being mass produced for gateways. If the devs have calculated the numbers right, the upkeep costing this much may be a good thing as it implies the travel speed will be significantly faster than regular FTL. Quick maths on lets say Montem>Kiruna: 200 flights per day at maximum, each regular public shipping costing ~30k, so if the travel time was instant, it could generate 6M worth at most per day (or 3M if you count the trip back as empty) before fuel cost (which based on the numbers so far seems quite low). Likely the numbers would be close to 50-100 flights per day, perhaps scaling up over time, and the speed only a bit faster than regular FTL, which puts the value at 50 flights x (10k-500) = 475k per day of profit, or 237.5k counting the trip back as empty). Upkeep being ~70k can easily be covered. But of course, this means only 200k-400k gets generated to provide ROI, so thats looking at 2-4+ years to pay for itself, assuming players are fine gaining little monetary benefit from gates and just gaining the speed convenience. [02-Dec-24 06:09 PM] realbandit#0000 I actually expected the upkeep to cost more than this - though it will be felt harder on non CX gates that don't gain as much traffic. Any branching routes will have to seriously look at these costs. [02-Dec-24 06:11 PM] realbandit#0000 And to put it in context, we're spending 250M on a gateway already, this upkeep only costs about 0.03% of that per day. [02-Dec-24 06:21 PM] archielvahr#0000 I'm expecting a 30k travel fee to be too high, and it's really hard to imagine 200 flights per day each way. I guess it's a good baseline but I was expecting more like 25 trips at 10k each {Reactions} 👍 [02-Dec-24 06:22 PM] realbandit#0000 Yeah, it is a bit hard to guess the numbers at this point Gateways starting with 200 flights per day, and each capacity upgrade adding more, is the worry I have that the devs aren't checking the numbers right. Or they have, and they know the rate is that high? [02-Dec-24 06:24 PM] realbandit#0000 I definitely think gateways could charge a lot more though, I'd pay a lot for speed convenience for my 2 lone ships lol 10k would be dirt cheap for a faster route, I'd be happy paying up to 50k if it was twice the speed, but i'm guessing not many others would be. [02-Dec-24 06:25 PM] jcheung#0000 depending on how much of a speed boost it is, i might be fine with paying 30k per jump.... but at 30k a leg, it better be a damn sight faster 😅 [02-Dec-24 06:25 PM] tanda#0000 30k one way transit and I get it in 24 hours? Sounds about like hiring Darkfuel for a transfer already [02-Dec-24 06:27 PM] jcheung#0000 well. if it gets me there instantly.... i'd pay 30k without any complaints {Reactions} 💯 [02-Dec-24 06:28 PM] realbandit#0000 If the devs are choosing same time per jump (any more word on that?) then the longer routes will be even more valuable I believe Montem>Curie is at maximum of 24.9 Pc - that could charge a lot [02-Dec-24 06:28 PM] tanda#0000 Not sure about gate fuel costs, but with 500k being ballpark maintenance cost, 30k transit fees covers the daily cost in 3 jumps {Reactions} 👍 [02-Dec-24 06:29 PM] realbandit#0000 Gate fuel costs I expect to be rather low, I ran the numbers a few weeks ago and it could be as little as 500 credits per trip lol [02-Dec-24 06:29 PM] realbandit#0000 could be a x10 though, but even 5k is only as much as a regular FTL trip [02-Dec-24 06:30 PM] tanda#0000 Yeah, I think your above take is correct. CX routes will be fine [02-Dec-24 06:31 PM] tanda#0000 looks like a great time to get into Lithium mining, though [02-Dec-24 06:31 PM] tanda#0000 POW was already thin [02-Dec-24 06:33 PM] realbandit#0000 SNF has been in the lithium game for quite a while hehe And it's not so much POW that it'll be an issue, only about 1 ECA worth [02-Dec-24 06:34 PM] realbandit#0000 Though that is 1 ECA per gate... Including EXT/SME, maybe 1/3 of a base per gateway upkeep? [02-Dec-24 06:38 PM] realbandit#0000 Running the numbers it's about 3/4 of a base needed per gate upkeep - thats for the entire chain of all items. [02-Dec-24 06:39 PM] tanda#0000 So there would probably be a good market for someone to do it extremely cheaply for several gates at once {Reactions} 👍 [02-Dec-24 09:41 PM] archielvahr#0000 I've been chatting with a few people from Benten, esp @cptcoleslaw and @eminence32, I'm hopeful about coordinating gateways there too. [02-Dec-24 09:43 PM] archielvahr#0000 Since they aren't as far along with their gateway production, my personal idea is that the AGC's third coop gate might go from LS-231c (Styx) to Katoa. And then perhaps the Benten folks could be responsible for the return link. [02-Dec-24 09:44 PM] archielvahr#0000 This has some really nice advantages for the control side- Antares doens't have to be involved in the government of Katoa, and would still control both gateways around Styx-c. If the gateway funds from both gates get mushed together, we wouldn't be able to separate them anyway, so that works well with the model in place for the gateway cooperative. [02-Dec-24 09:45 PM] .urpalhal#0000 https://tenor.com/view/owen-wilson-progress-making-wedding-crashers-gif-10069195 {Embed} https://tenor.com/view/owen-wilson-progress-making-wedding-crashers-gif-10069195 https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/HkI0BNDUu3Ug6B46xUwJyvKEYUtzYduYElK6eyVZNt4/https/media.tenor.com/JP9DdZ-BcrwAAAAe/owen-wilson-progress.png [02-Dec-24 09:45 PM] .urpalhal#0000 Cool [02-Dec-24 09:45 PM] eminence32#0000 thanks for the invite over here @archielvahr [02-Dec-24 09:45 PM] .urpalhal#0000 Great job Archiel [02-Dec-24 09:45 PM] eminence32#0000 also note that i'm governor on aratora (LS-231b), in case that's useful at all [02-Dec-24 09:45 PM] .urpalhal#0000 Now for those Devs to release the update [02-Dec-24 09:46 PM] eminence32#0000 we have a lot to do on our side (Benten side), but i think very top of our TODO list is figure out how many gateways we can afford right now [02-Dec-24 09:48 PM] tanda#0000 Happy to see some coordination on this regard from the BEN area [02-Dec-24 09:50 PM] archielvahr#0000 Heh yeah well I am sure we have at least 3 months before release, so no reason to rush into any plans 😅 [02-Dec-24 11:20 PM] antisyntax#0000 yikes! that's uh... a lot of logistics needed for shipping that lol. [03-Dec-24 05:50 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Word on the street (testserver), is that none of the fancy new commands, nor any gateway instances have been implemented, beyond the GTWI. So we won't have any data to use in projections, until we setup a viable gateway service, and go from there. :/ [03-Dec-24 06:26 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I was hoping that these gateways would serve as a tool, to expedite the growth of the more... out of reach planets: 1) to spool up profitable, higher end, commodity production, and 2) to open up less capital intensive ship designs for sale (STLs only.) But those hopes are only based on the compounding maths of long-term investments/costs, and don't really take into account that 90% of Prun's player-base are trials, with only ~500-1000 PROs who will be able to use any gateway, to their fullest, in the long-term. So I'm with realbandit, in viewing these gateways as a very long term thing... But the game might be different in 2-4 years. We shall see. [03-Dec-24 06:28 AM] tanda#0000 After the CX's I strongly think we'll likely see productive clusters given priority (KI-401 and surrounding systems here in ANT). Such projects would have an incredibly long ROI, though [03-Dec-24 10:14 AM] eminence32#0000 does anyone have any info about the new KR (Krypton) material, and how it will be made or mined? [03-Dec-24 10:15 AM] .urpalhal#0000 Well IRL KR is a noble gas like HE NE and AR [03-Dec-24 10:15 AM] .urpalhal#0000 So it will be a gas too I think [03-Dec-24 10:33 AM] antisyntax#0000 It's a gas [03-Dec-24 10:34 AM] antisyntax#0000 it's a natural resource too, so it needs to be extracted [03-Dec-24 10:34 AM] antisyntax#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1313543925453291591/gateway-new-fuel.png?ex=6814f41c&is=6813a29c&hm=3effd424c47720990c894ad1d0e87829d6955b4b02398d404b65adcb7ab2b871& [03-Dec-24 10:34 AM] antisyntax#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1313543929219518475/gateway-new-materials.png?ex=6814f41d&is=6813a29d&hm=eee00d8e3ff02aaecb3bd348480c50c39ab769afa1d925b3ae45bed34517af1e& [03-Dec-24 10:34 AM] antisyntax#0000 (pinned) https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/posts/what-we-know-about-gateways/ {Embed} https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/posts/what-we-know-about-gateways/ What we know about Gateways | OOG Capital Management Everything we know about gateways- so far. https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/RZAB_xXIeAXn1u6PSETRmtOPvqCuSjPqNJILNR6cWQo/https/oogcapitalmanagement.com/images/jumpgate-header.png [03-Dec-24 10:39 AM] jcheung#0000 Pinned a message. [03-Dec-24 10:48 AM] eminence32#0000 i read that post (it's very good), but i think the screenshot showing info about KR is wrong [03-Dec-24 10:48 AM] eminence32#0000 oh, haha no, i'm just incapable of reading [03-Dec-24 10:49 AM] eminence32#0000 i saw the "Wrought products" section and read it as "Production" sorry all for the noise [03-Dec-24 11:00 AM] histidinedwarf#0000 Very nice post [03-Dec-24 11:00 AM] histidinedwarf#0000 > Northern Antares CX [03-Dec-24 11:01 AM] histidinedwarf#0000 Transport Union Gateway Hub is also a good name and presumably an Expanse reference ? [03-Dec-24 11:02 AM] histidinedwarf#0000 I haven't followed gateway updates but the fact it can be used by STL-only ships is actually very exciting [03-Dec-24 11:19 AM] eminence32#0000 ahh, i didn't realize that ships with FTL drives were forbidden to use the gateway, that's important info {Reactions} 😱 [03-Dec-24 11:21 AM] histidinedwarf#0000 I meant that ships without an FTL drive can get through [03-Dec-24 11:21 AM] histidinedwarf#0000 And those with one can also do it {Reactions} ✅ [03-Dec-24 11:22 AM] histidinedwarf#0000 As long as there is an STL drive they can go [03-Dec-24 11:22 AM] histidinedwarf#0000 mb [03-Dec-24 11:24 AM] eminence32#0000 oh, got it. thanks [03-Dec-24 02:52 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah not forbidden, just not required. {Reactions} 😮‍💨 (2) [05-Dec-24 01:45 PM] optimizedfunction#0000 3 months? Thats enough time to plan and put in place a new SF pipeline which I will convert to VF :hehe: [05-Dec-24 02:37 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Just watch. It'll be the spring equinox of 2025 in a few days ( I don't remember the date --- third week of March of whatever). [05-Dec-24 10:37 PM] jvaler#0000 added some afab pledges to the sheet and extended the pledge formatting down to row 200 {Reactions} 👍 🙏 [06-Dec-24 11:33 AM] superbadsounds#0000 Just freed up a permit so I'll be getting a foothold on Styx c later today or tomorrow! {Reactions} 🎉 (2) [06-Dec-24 11:58 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 What? LS-231 is now called "Styx"? ... *looks up the wiki article on the mythology* ... Whoever chose that name, you deserve a medal. [06-Dec-24 12:19 PM] jvaler#0000 ohhhh wait that's genius [06-Dec-24 12:22 PM] tanda#0000 Alright, but which side is Hades? [06-Dec-24 12:31 PM] cptcoleslaw#0000 I mean... [06-Dec-24 12:32 PM] cptcoleslaw#0000 Clearly Antares yeah? [06-Dec-24 12:32 PM] jvaler#0000 AGP is the forbidden fruit {Reactions} 😆 💯 [06-Dec-24 12:55 PM] archielvahr#0000 I've been chatting with other gateway teams, and the folks in Benten are onboard with the connection to ANT space. I proposed that the ADI Gateway Coop build and run the gate from Styx to BEN, and their organization take care of the gate from BEN to Styx. This gives us a connection without having to manage and upkeep the gate in BEN space. It also works out production-wise as our first gate pair is in pretty good shape and they are just starting their efforts. [06-Dec-24 12:58 PM] archielvahr#0000 Also the planet Styx C is now called Hekaton - Drawing from the Greek: Hekatompylos, the ancient city of a hundred gates. 😄 [06-Dec-24 12:59 PM] tanda#0000 Man that's a solid name {Reactions} 💯 (2) [06-Dec-24 02:10 PM] eminence32#0000 yalls naming game is on point [06-Dec-24 02:14 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Uhm... I hate to be a debbie downer... But I'd recommend an #on-call collection pool, of pledged mats, on the front page... Anyone's who has pledged mats, can add-in their available stock buffers. That info can then be used as a real expectations, whenever devs do drop the gateway updates, so that there's no surprises? For those working on the LIT.... its a real #pita-pie. 😦 Excess stocks can be figured in a FIFO rule, for new AGC gateways, or transfers to other entities, based on some rules which haven't been considered, based on whatever --- just ideas. [06-Dec-24 02:35 PM] jvaler#0000 what does this mean? the pledge list is already on the front page of the sheet [06-Dec-24 02:35 PM] jcheung#0000 the pledge amount afaik is the amount you promise to provide when requested, not everything that is currently in your inventory.... [06-Dec-24 02:36 PM] jcheung#0000 which could be like purchase from the CX [06-Dec-24 02:47 PM] jvaler#0000 i thought stuff being bought would fall under the monetary pledge category? [06-Dec-24 02:47 PM] jvaler#0000 unless they already have a trade deal lined up for a specific item, then it makes sense not to [06-Dec-24 02:58 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah that's generally the intent. I wouldn't suggest pledging items you don't make with the plan to buy them on the CX, post gateway launch. [06-Dec-24 03:14 PM] jcheung#0000 i was just giving an example of why FIO might not be useful [06-Dec-24 03:14 PM] jcheung#0000 maybe listed on CX might have been a better example [06-Dec-24 03:45 PM] jvaler#0000 wait is roh talking about FIO or something? [06-Dec-24 03:45 PM] jvaler#0000 still super confused [06-Dec-24 03:45 PM] jcheung#0000 you know. my dumb ass read FIFO as FIO [06-Dec-24 03:45 PM] jcheung#0000 ignore me [06-Dec-24 03:45 PM] jvaler#0000 oop [06-Dec-24 04:07 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 I was hoping that the release was in 6+ months. Since our expectations have changed to January or something, that changes things for me at least. Just wanted that def clarified. [06-Dec-24 04:08 PM] jvaler#0000 want what clarified? [06-Dec-24 04:10 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 In my book (and in most IRL fundraising... pledges are guarantees).... But since we're dealing with a #whenever release, and not some set deadline, it may raise an issue. [06-Dec-24 06:18 PM] archielvahr#0000 I'm gonna move the convo out of #agc-information to here about HRT [06-Dec-24 06:18 PM] archielvahr#0000 They just don't have anyone in their region doing anything [06-Dec-24 06:23 PM] archielvahr#0000 If anyone knows of anyone who is a leader in HRT space, lemme know [06-Dec-24 06:26 PM] tanda#0000 how big is Lord's power bloc? [06-Dec-24 06:27 PM] tanda#0000 At the very least Citrus Union would be able to point us in the right direction? [06-Dec-24 06:27 PM] archielvahr#0000 Good suggestion [06-Dec-24 06:28 PM] archielvahr#0000 Is Lord in charge of Citrus Union? I don't see a lot of their corp mentioned in UFO [06-Dec-24 06:30 PM] tanda#0000 I'm asking worvand at the moment (he was last active in chat) [06-Dec-24 06:55 PM] jvaler#0000 @lord3001 ? [06-Dec-24 06:59 PM] lord3001#0000 Hmm? [06-Dec-24 06:59 PM] evov#0000 Weekly update of gateway parts I have in stock if anyone needs - {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1314758192894316664/image.png?ex=6814c1bc&is=6813703c&hm=2874f015812b1579b6509e947ef4479da159537f3ec17859731f1ec113ef8bf2& [06-Dec-24 07:00 PM] tanda#0000 Is there anyone we could contact down in the HRT area to get some homegrown coordination on the gateway project? [06-Dec-24 07:01 PM] lord3001#0000 Hilarious, but no I don't lead CU. That's MysteriousWalrus. And I believe there's already plans to build some gate ways, not sure. Been kinda inactive for a bit with work. All I know is some people have cranked up their fab production and there was some talk about a copper world [06-Dec-24 07:02 PM] tanda#0000 oh so there is some level of interest. Great! [07-Dec-24 05:02 AM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 HRT is a patchwork. Lots of people start or expand over there for foodies. All the "established" entities that you've had discussions with, have interests in the area. Maybe you can sell the idea of an AGC type collaboration, with all, for something in HRT to be eventually selected, and the arrangements to be formalised at a much later time? [07-Dec-24 12:05 PM] optimizedfunction#0000 the benten gateway will make my SF shipments so easy :yay: and Nova is getting a direct link to MOR 👀 [09-Dec-24 05:57 AM] pxlfox.#0000 Just to throw this out here: Eisodos [15-Dec-24 02:05 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 are there any CLR electronics necessary in gateway production chains? [15-Dec-24 02:05 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 i can supply some in small amounts for cheap [15-Dec-24 02:05 PM] tanda#0000 SP is probably the big driver for electronics needs here [15-Dec-24 02:06 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 do they need any CLR stuff? [15-Dec-24 02:06 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 GTW are so lacking in electronics and it makes me sad [15-Dec-24 02:06 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 i couldve become rich off of this [15-Dec-24 02:07 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 also woudlnt it make sense to eventually link the two gateway branches? [15-Dec-24 02:08 PM] tanda#0000 you should head over to #agc-information and give the links there a good read [15-Dec-24 02:09 PM] tanda#0000 there's extensive plans in place (but yes, HRT is a bit of a blankspot right now) [15-Dec-24 02:09 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 oh are the gateways too far out? [15-Dec-24 02:09 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 i thought they were just close enough for a link [15-Dec-24 02:10 PM] tanda#0000 no, that's because there's not a large political body in HRT with gateway plans. I believe that CU has some plans, but that's the last I heard of it [15-Dec-24 02:10 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 these two i mean {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1317946955586080911/image.png?ex=68147e00&is=68132c80&hm=bd070decec06ffb6cc896a4658e0ad4de4433b67a16ef74e2b20c82b09160543& [15-Dec-24 02:10 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 nova and kw-602 [15-Dec-24 02:11 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 or ls-231 [15-Dec-24 02:11 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 cos kw isnt actually linked now that i zoom in [15-Dec-24 02:11 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1317947190999781486/image.png?ex=68147e38&is=68132cb8&hm=6259461e6174c2ea1e8fa7fd7f6474da50df86f83cd697961641e1b34ca8962f& [15-Dec-24 02:13 PM] tanda#0000 These are the immediately planned gateways AFAIK. BEN will probably immediately pivot to doing a link to Nova after the ANT connection, but iirc KAWA and OOG/Archiel are cooperating closely on the connection at Styx [15-Dec-24 02:13 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 oh i see [15-Dec-24 02:13 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 i just thought it would make sensew [15-Dec-24 02:13 PM] sgt.skeleton#0000 cos thats a lot of ftl if you wanted to change gtw routes [15-Dec-24 02:14 PM] tanda#0000 keep in mind these gateways are perfectly functional. Even a partially complete gateway will reduce the travel time on that CX route [15-Dec-24 02:15 PM] tanda#0000 and the map is "currently planned connections" so more or less gateways that will be able to be put up within 1-2 months of the update actually dropping [15-Dec-24 05:52 PM] realbandit#0000 90% of the CLR time for Gateways is for MTC, NFI, and NCS ~600 MTC, ~60k NCS, ~400k NFI per gateway (varies on upgrades) Still means a significant amount of time on the other electronics if only want to make those, but they go into more complicated chains so people likely already have them running. ~1.6k TRN is the largest of the rest, though CX's normally have that in sufficient bulk. [16-Dec-24 04:31 AM] sgt.skeleton#0000 not the ben one [16-Dec-24 04:31 AM] sgt.skeleton#0000 ben cx is sorely lacking in all electronics [16-Dec-24 04:31 AM] sgt.skeleton#0000 oh MTC has a use now? [16-Dec-24 04:32 AM] sgt.skeleton#0000 i guess i can easily crank out lots of these then [16-Dec-24 04:42 AM] realbandit#0000 Not yet, but it will One of the new materials will use MTC [16-Dec-24 04:43 AM] realbandit#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1318166547906297896/image.png?ex=6814a1c3&is=68135043&hm=14eb0e5262febd55295ae268c4034e1c745836a481500296525d67fb91335106& [16-Dec-24 04:43 AM] realbandit#0000 About 7k SPT per Gate [16-Dec-24 04:52 AM] sgt.skeleton#0000 i love how GTW are considered unit prefabs xd [16-Dec-24 12:19 PM] eminence32#0000 everyone should have a GTW or two in their back pocket [16-Dec-24 03:32 PM] archielvahr#0000 Just a heads up, I currently have all the KV and MTC stockpiled on my CLF planet to make the SPT needed for the first 3 gateways {Reactions} 👍 [16-Dec-24 03:32 PM] archielvahr#0000 You can still make some, other regions might want to buy them [16-Dec-24 05:33 PM] superbadsounds#0000 I feel like I will be dedicating my Katoan CLFs to the SPT cause on Benten's side of things, though I'm not stockpiling precursors currently. [18-Dec-24 10:54 AM] archielvahr#0000 ## Gateway update for Dec 2024! https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/posts/gateway-update-dec-2024/ {Embed} https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/posts/gateway-update-dec-2024/ Gateway Update, December 2024 | OOG Capital Management The ADI Gateway project currently has 71% of resources pledged! https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/OaNFtFG0YT2afF0_VsyDHEJPdCjScRPf1oDr4DW62Jk/https/oogcapitalmanagement.com/images/gateway-dec-2024.png [18-Dec-24 11:42 AM] archielvahr#0000 Inside that update post there are some materials needed and cash purchase prices listed! [18-Dec-24 11:47 AM] archielvahr#0000 I'm considering asking a question about the cost/benefits of the gateways as they stand. We aren't really sure how fast they are and we know the upkeep is pretty costly at 500k a week. I think they need to be very fast to justify the costs. (Even if you ignore the sunk cost of construction) [18-Dec-24 01:51 PM] archielvahr#0000 They indicated they weren't sure about the balance of the upkeep and will adjust it as it goes [18-Dec-24 02:54 PM] archielvahr#0000 The CBL, LIT, and HSE has ben supplied [18-Dec-24 03:03 PM] eminence32#0000 i've always wondered if the large costs of gateways was (in part, not exclusively) designed to simply be a large resource sink to help keep the billionaires in-check [18-Dec-24 03:07 PM] realbandit#0000 I think HQ's already do that enough Gateways are more aimed at a wider range of items, especially items that weren't even made before (at least not at any proper scale) like MTC, PSH, LIT, SP, etc. It definitely might appeal to more billionaires though - I'm on Basic (for now) and so HQ's was locked out to me, but Gateways on the other hand? [18-Dec-24 03:09 PM] eminence32#0000 i sort of agree that the HQs upgrades already do that, but that only works for players who are trying to expand their HQ [18-Dec-24 03:18 PM] realbandit#0000 Exactly, still there would be a high correlation: chasing HQ = more bases = more profit lol But I suppose they could have designed Gateways to catch the rest of the billionaires like you say [18-Dec-24 08:08 PM] superbadsounds#0000 I'm sure there is a point where an HQ level would be as expensive as a gateway.. {Reactions} Death [19-Dec-24 02:22 AM] realbandit#0000 Yep, Fire's already at that level lol gateway costs ~250M, and the current highest HQ known is ~260M In fact Fire would have spent ~2.5B in total on HQ upgrades so far [19-Dec-24 10:57 AM] sgt.skeleton#0000 i thought they were 400mil? [19-Dec-24 11:02 AM] realbandit#0000 Technically it can be as the maximum upgraded gateway can reach 400M, but that would be 3xVolume, and is unlikely to be built, I think those were also early estimates on GWS and have since dropped a bit. The base Gateway is about 210M depending on whose prices you use, and on that same metric the HQ would be 250M [19-Dec-24 12:23 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Current highest HQ? I might beg to differ. I have a 95 --> 99% confidence interval, in a 100 HQ level upgrade costing ~31 bil, with a cost sum of ~400 bil from HQ level 2. But this is banter, lol. 🙂 [19-Dec-24 12:28 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 As for the gateways... I think the devs are pulling another Eve Online trick. Building up experimental server infrastructure (which may be used in other novel features in the future), while providing some, albeit "intangible" market incentives for such things. If any of you have played Eve, think of the player driven-market for Upwell structure construction, and sales. It's the best example that I can think of, when considering the direction that the devs are not only trying out right now, but something that's also hinted at with their long-term roadmap. [19-Dec-24 12:38 PM] realbandit#0000 Not sure what you're getting at here? This is literally the highest HQ currently known, and it costs around 250M, which is equivalent to a Gateway, which is what superbadsounds was speculating about. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1319373250714796165/3LGdUT9.png?ex=68151117&is=6813bf97&hm=a826813e0c81deb7f7919cd8b8b8ad3735c1ed71b4dd989fb0c0976be14fbc67& [19-Dec-24 12:39 PM] razenpok#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1319373630341251172/image.png?ex=68151172&is=6813bff2&hm=361ae3ca572eaa2ebdb050e372456ff35fcf6ace271689e8e8d7d7aa4243079a& {Reactions} 👍 (2) [19-Dec-24 12:54 PM] scintillating_iridescence#0000 Fine... ~~Current~~ Estimated values. I'll drop my findings on the PCT discord, in the hq research, rather than here, in a day or so, cuz #channels. But the ever increasing values of HQ upgrade requirements.. should be hitting a x2 gateway cost at about HQ level ~57 --> 58. That will then be hitting the investment choice of private/self-funded operations, versus public/group-funded operations, more akin to POPR/POPI stuff on planets. It's actually a theme. I have my own gripe regarding the "upkeeps" that molp posted like 2 weeks ago.. But devs have data that we just don't, so we'll see what comes about. [19-Dec-24 05:27 PM] superbadsounds#0000 From my own brief look into future upgrade costs, it seemed like upgrades were grouped into decades, with HQ 1-10 costing roughly 1m, HQ 11-20 costing 10m, 100m for 21-30... so on and so on... assuming the same pattern for levels 51-100, that's like.. 1.1quadrillion..? 🤣 [19-Dec-24 06:05 PM] roche3950#0000 https://tenor.com/view/dr-evil-austin-powers-mike-myers-gif-18108751379994545095 {Embed} https://tenor.com/view/dr-evil-austin-powers-mike-myers-gif-18108751379994545095 https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/USGq44V5ueCQ59HI9t9-dgjbRHWS_8JBg4ezlcmU5J8/https/media.tenor.com/-081b5Jwi8cAAAAe/dr-evil-austin-powers.png [20-Dec-24 06:06 AM] evov#0000 Updated ANT stock holdings for gateways parts if anyone needs stuff. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1319636966836277289/image.png?ex=6814b532&is=681363b2&hm=b3cf5983759a8b406ee8f1a7b31332e2afbd9cb4da1ba7cc3ca736af0de11c4e& [21-Dec-24 12:04 AM] archielvahr#0000 RSH is our bottleneck at the moment, but I started up an RSH base today {Reactions} 💯 [27-Dec-24 03:56 AM] evov#0000 Weekly stocktake for gateway parts. I've gone over my goal for RSH. So unless anyone wants to buy some, I'll be halting RSH production and letting those PP4's loose on other tasks. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1322141067096752169/image.png?ex=681496d2&is=68134552&hm=6cf3ab5e7ea8c8e3aa694a4196ef00964302f4296f80012206e17b542f658aec& [28-Dec-24 12:51 AM] spermatozoon_saloon#0000 Hey, do we know what the upkeep for gateways will be? I'm thinking about getting involved but unsure where to start [28-Dec-24 12:55 AM] spermatozoon_saloon#0000 Thinking about getting into energy component assembly but unsure if it will be required after initial build completion [28-Dec-24 01:04 AM] realbandit#0000 The upkeep has been posted, about 500k worth per week {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1322460062366826607/20241127.png?ex=68151728&is=6813c5a8&hm=e95f00de402a71d7d331c3f37b4390b541aa725f19c08d0eb050fa660995f8de& [28-Dec-24 01:05 AM] realbandit#0000 Gateways need a whole heap of SP, so if you're looking to get into ECA's it's a great start if you can source the materials - 8k SP per gate and lots of gateways to be built so I wouldn't worry about demand drying up [28-Dec-24 01:10 AM] spermatozoon_saloon#0000 Perfect, has anyone else claimed to be starting a SPplanet? I'm aleady producing SP but I can ramp up if no one else has [28-Dec-24 07:18 AM] moke.#0000 I'm planning to. Ive got all the base components for them being made now. [28-Dec-24 09:44 AM] sgt.skeleton#0000 I would if i hadnt nearly bankrupted myself xd [28-Dec-24 09:45 AM] tanda#0000 I had to back off from my own commitments to the project too. I think it's cool, I just can't afford to contribute AND grow at the same time [28-Dec-24 10:03 AM] archielvahr#0000 I have cash contributions that I am under an obligation to responsibly spend! So I have orders up for a lot of SP on ANT and Moria [28-Dec-24 10:06 AM] archielvahr#0000 So if you're new or need the cash, contributing that way is very helpful. I can stretch the prices a little bit for new players and small orders, but generally speaking here's the list of prices I can accept (the "bid" column): {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1322596599528165428/image.png?ex=6814ed91&is=68139c11&hm=47117365b2f5623ea5ff55569dcafedfaaae4de99b17387b35aced437ae1bbec& [28-Dec-24 10:09 AM] jcheung#0000 LDE price seems a little high, but i guess you also don't need any of it {Reactions} 💯 [28-Dec-24 10:30 AM] tanda#0000 TSH remains a sore spot, I see [28-Dec-24 10:34 AM] jcheung#0000 as it turns out [28-Dec-24 10:34 AM] jcheung#0000 i just brought a small amount of TSH production online [28-Dec-24 10:36 AM] jcheung#0000 that said, i alone would take around 426d to fill out the rest of the remaining [28-Dec-24 08:03 PM] archielvahr#0000 I put in some TSH orders, for that one our prices line up nicely with the CX price [28-Dec-24 08:09 PM] tanda#0000 In case anyone is willing to run the PP4s, I make THP {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1322748374369304637/image.png?ex=6814d22b&is=681380ab&hm=ca63e7edeba1e46b054253c083205f19601da9691b35a3020131aa8020746705& [28-Dec-24 08:29 PM] evov#0000 R.E. TSH - I think I'm doing about 160/week, so I'm only about 3 weeks away from hitting my production target. After that I'll actively dump it into the market or change production. My goal (arbitrary as it may be) is to solo produce all the parts needed for building a gateway (at least everything above the smelter level - it's just not possible for me to extract + smelt all the ores / metals needed solo). Once that goal is reached, I doubt I'll have much need for a thousand TSH's 🙂 [28-Dec-24 10:24 PM] superbadsounds#0000 I'm currently making 75 TSH/wk with more production on the way. I will be looking to have about 1K TSH on hand by the time things go live. [28-Dec-24 11:33 PM] archielvahr#0000 Got some nice TSH and SP purchases on various CXes today, thanks to all who have contributed- looking forward to more [28-Dec-24 11:34 PM] archielvahr#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1322799836256403466/image.png?ex=68150219&is=6813b099&hm=7f22eb7d2d39af42730d837cc692331da86f64460f54d18479b3a74932b2e729& [28-Dec-24 11:34 PM] archielvahr#0000 There's another 55m of cash pledges I haven't tried to collect yet [28-Dec-24 11:35 PM] archielvahr#0000 Since we are beating our target, it gives us a bit of wiggle room as we our needs get more and more specific. [05-Jan-25 11:49 AM] archielvahr#0000 New list of "Most wanted items". Items at the top are most needed. [05-Jan-25 11:49 AM] archielvahr#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1325521625566941309/image.png?ex=681505b6&is=6813b436&hm=1ef54f86b9b3f1daf5965ba8190a2de5e23b3568214bd8598d75ae3b866d2679& [05-Jan-25 11:50 AM] archielvahr#0000 We are doing very nicely overall. First pair is nearly completely pledged, and the third gate is at about 50%. [15-Jan-25 12:31 PM] archielvahr#0000 I ran an audit yesterday on my stockpile vs. the purchases I've made so far with cash contributions and everything balanced nicely. I haven't lost anything that I've bought so far. Many of the purchases were made in MOR and shipped over because we got a lot of cash contributions in NCC (people gotta get rid of it somehow!) In particular, the SP buy orders have been an ongoing success. We now have two gateways fully pledged, with the third at 76.4%. I think we're still a while away from the gateways releasing, since we don't have a dev log with a flight through a gateway yet. But it's likely time to begin thinking about the 4th gate. I think the spot that makes the most sense is Heph to IA-151. IA-151 is one natural linking point to Hortus. It's also the location of @evov's gateway project, so we won't be duplicating effort with multiple gates going to the same place. Discussions welcome 🙂 If the BEN team doesn't have their gateway together, materials will be redirected towards the BEN -> Hekaton link to complete the pair instead. {Reactions} 🎉 (4) antares_initiative (3) 💚 [25-Jan-25 05:35 PM] eminence32#0000 over in the BEN system, we're still making progress towards our gateway, but we have some really big gaps in our production capabilities. for example, we don't yet have anyone who's pledged the 1200. so if @evov you want to dump excess TSH our way (once you're done with your own gateways), we'll gladly accept it [25-Jan-25 05:36 PM] eminence32#0000 here's a quick snapshot of were we stand: [25-Jan-25 05:36 PM] eminence32#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1332856689044623431/image.png?ex=6814ae45&is=68135cc5&hm=d8530e328a641d38ef3c531833dc3a1827a48d9df1cb45ac45fe6abffac69010& [25-Jan-25 05:39 PM] evov#0000 I've met my production goals for TSH (1200+) and re-allocated those production lines. Happy to spin them up again if needed. [25-Jan-25 05:40 PM] eminence32#0000 (also i didn't mean to single out EvoV there. anyone with excess production capabilities can donate to the benten gateway ;)) [25-Jan-25 05:46 PM] evov#0000 Just looking at your list. A number of items you can comfortably fill from the CX as needed imo. But a few will probably require production rather than purchase. Ignoring the things not available yet (e.g. GWS etc) LIT, PSH, RSH, TSH, SP - I think it will be difficult to fill these items from CX purchases. Distance / Volume upgrades also add a non-trivial amount of things like LIT / PSH / Afabs [25-Jan-25 05:55 PM] eminence32#0000 yeah, you have a good observation. some people have offered us cash donations, and i've been thinking about how best to use that cash. to continue using TSH as an example, the CX probably can't fulfill all 1200, which would cost 40mil or something like that). so i'm thinking that in some cases, cash donations would be best spent on building out production lines [25-Jan-25 05:58 PM] eminence32#0000 you "only" need 4.5 PP4s to make that much TSH in 100 days (of course you have to provide all the precursors) [25-Jan-25 05:58 PM] evov#0000 They compete with CBL's for BE usage I think as well. [25-Jan-25 06:00 PM] evov#0000 When I was designing my production for gateways - AML's were one of the things I had to meaningfully expand on. The amount of BE / TA that's required (along with other alloys after RHO becomes available) is significant. [25-Jan-25 06:01 PM] eminence32#0000 do we need to fund a few new bases dedicated to BER extraction and processing? [25-Jan-25 06:05 PM] evov#0000 Depends who "we" is. BER supply seemed ok last I checked. But another BER mine somewhere probably wouldn't hurt. AML's aren't cheap though, and gateways use a lot of them. [25-Jan-25 06:06 PM] eminence32#0000 a general "we" meaning the people who are trying to get a benten gateway built [25-Jan-25 06:11 PM] evov#0000 I'll have this list completed by the end of the week. Next step for me will be the pre-cursors for the "RED" items. If I know other projects are looking short on certain items I'll keep the production lines running on them if that helps. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1332865446373883964/image.png?ex=6814b66d&is=681364ed&hm=fc547b294c381a62730be7d0755155afc69d0805a086c37de4c568f0df96c999& {Reactions} 💪 [25-Jan-25 06:15 PM] evov#0000 My guess, is that it'll probably take between 1 and 2 months from when RHO and the new recipes are introduced until a gateway gets completed. So there's plenty of time left to build up stocks of those green/yellow items imo. [25-Jan-25 06:36 PM] eminence32#0000 that's an impressive amount of **everything** [25-Jan-25 07:29 PM] evov#0000 My goal is to solo produce a gateway. I think it would be cool to have a full gateway (with distance/volume) upgrades for sale. Kind of feels like a "final boss" when it comes to productive capacity in the game. [25-Jan-25 11:55 PM] eminence32#0000 at which point EvoV will melt into dust and become the stuff of stars themselves [26-Jan-25 12:00 AM] tanda#0000 at which point the devs will announce a dyson sphere and EvoV will begrudingly bootstrap 2 more systems to prepare [26-Jan-25 12:01 AM] eminence32#0000 lol [26-Jan-25 12:02 AM] jcheung#0000 swarms first [26-Jan-25 12:02 AM] jcheung#0000 they'll re-coalesce from the dust into a dyson swarm [26-Jan-25 12:06 AM] tanda#0000 hopefully before we get an actual sphere, we'll get something like an O'Niell Cylinder [26-Jan-25 12:06 AM] tanda#0000 so we can make planets where we need them {Reactions} 👆 [26-Jan-25 12:15 AM] evov#0000 If they announce a Dyson sphere in the game, someone else better start making ships because there'll be damn near 20 planets worth of ship production go offline overnight 🙂 {Reactions} 😬 (2) [27-Jan-25 04:13 AM] pxlfox.#0000 At this point, it’s EvoVs universe - we’re just building in it {Reactions} 🤣 (3) [29-Jan-25 09:21 PM] spermatozoon_saloon#0000 That's alright. This town is big enough for the two of us [30-Jan-25 06:24 AM] pxlfox.#0000 Hopefully, before that, we get the opportunity to throw a lot of money into terraforming to make the planets, that already exists, better [30-Jan-25 06:27 AM] pxlfox.#0000 It could even be like any old infrastructure - plot it down, build it and feed it with materials. Your planet is too hot or too cold? Boom - Climate Regulator Atmosphere too thick? Atmospheric Regulator (They are smarter and more creative people then me to make it cooler with cooler names) [30-Jan-25 06:28 AM] pxlfox.#0000 I’m not sure how “realistic” it is to change the gravity of a planet or make a gas giant a rocky planet, tho [30-Jan-25 06:31 AM] tanda#0000 yeah, not much to be done about those [30-Jan-25 07:58 AM] jvaler#0000 AEF basically already is terraforming imo lol {Reactions} 👆 [30-Jan-25 08:13 AM] brelov#0000 Just go to the center of the universe and get the Staff of Life from Steve :> [30-Jan-25 12:41 PM] roche3950#0000 Could be different systems for each direction too [30-Jan-25 12:56 PM] roche3950#0000 For instance N and O for introducing an atmosphere to a planet [31-Jan-25 02:42 AM] brelov#0000 Algae for early photosynthesis rather than dumping O. You're gonna need more N than O anyway so why not leave it to more natural processes [31-Jan-25 02:45 AM] pxlfox.#0000 I watched a documentary not long ago about moss and how it was probably one of the first plants on earth - way before we had a atmosphere to support plant life. They even research moss they can send to Mars. [31-Jan-25 08:50 PM] archielvahr#0000 Hey everyone, I posted a new update to the gateway project in the #agc-information channel. [31-Jan-25 08:50 PM] archielvahr#0000 Most notably, I will begin collecting materials. [31-Jan-25 08:52 PM] archielvahr#0000 The 4th gateway is live on the sheet, so you can begin pledging materials for that anytime you'd like! Also we had someone who is leaving the game potentially withdrawing some afab pledges, so there's a lot of room for more afabs [31-Jan-25 08:52 PM] archielvahr#0000 (pinned) And for all you wonderful members, the sheet is located here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=0#gid=0 {Embed} https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=0 ADI Gateway Co-op https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/LzEfon-BdQvClGBZk3i5tUu05zytpF5UeBsqrtfkWWw/https/lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docs/AHkbwyL4DQrZQyc4Z_y7gvVhrxmGTEcm_8prooHBWuboUjPPPXfx4m8lcaJC5nPSgHoWoU2_Dk7yAJfkr27f4Kcvz3grGsuL6n7xXFNSQUbq9czaMX-oMFuI%3Dw1200-h630-p [31-Jan-25 08:57 PM] sidepipe#0000 Any interest in more cash donations at this time? 🙂 [31-Jan-25 09:02 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yup, I will take more! [31-Jan-25 09:02 PM] archielvahr#0000 Looks like some HSE just disappeared from the pledges so it will be good to use cash contributions to pay for stuff like that. [31-Jan-25 09:03 PM] sidepipe#0000 I'll pledge another 20M - in a real currency like AIC this time 😄 {Reactions} 💯 [31-Jan-25 09:04 PM] jcheung#0000 i can cover some HSE [31-Jan-25 09:04 PM] jcheung#0000 ...otherwise you'd probably end up just buying from my CX order anyways [31-Jan-25 09:06 PM] jcheung#0000 right this second i can cover ~100 HSE, but i can also promise 1 HSE a day for a while [31-Jan-25 09:06 PM] tanda#0000 I just had to pull the HSE/TSH pledges that were still there from a few months ago. Those production lines never got fully stepped up [31-Jan-25 09:06 PM] tanda#0000 my apologies [31-Jan-25 09:14 PM] archielvahr#0000 No worries. I kind of figured some of that would happen. That's why I wanted to start with pledges early before moving to actual material contributions [31-Jan-25 09:15 PM] jcheung#0000 how much HSE was pulled? [31-Jan-25 09:15 PM] jcheung#0000 and TSH [31-Jan-25 09:15 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yep, either works for me. Just depends on if you want shares or cash [31-Jan-25 09:16 PM] archielvahr#0000 we're short 480 HSE total, like 300ish was pulled roughly [31-Jan-25 09:16 PM] archielvahr#0000 I have a ton of HSE but it's all earmarked for TRS production [31-Jan-25 09:45 PM] jcheung#0000 probably shares [31-Jan-25 09:46 PM] jcheung#0000 how much TSH was pulled? [31-Jan-25 09:46 PM] jcheung#0000 oh. right. TSH. i probably won't make a big dent in TSH at all [31-Jan-25 09:47 PM] tanda#0000 hey if you've got PP4s, I have THP out my ears [31-Jan-25 09:47 PM] tanda#0000 that was the step I made it up to [31-Jan-25 09:47 PM] jcheung#0000 you still make THP? [31-Jan-25 09:47 PM] tanda#0000 I do (it actually sells for some reason) [31-Jan-25 09:48 PM] jcheung#0000 i have something screaming at me telling me not to do this, but... [31-Jan-25 09:48 PM] jcheung#0000 where [31-Jan-25 09:48 PM] jcheung#0000 actually [31-Jan-25 09:48 PM] jcheung#0000 hey if you've got PP4s, I have THP out [31-Jan-25 10:22 PM] spermatozoon_saloon#0000 Do we have a deadline for fulfilling pledges? [31-Jan-25 10:52 PM] jcheung#0000 conclusion to that discussion was, ~17/d TSH [31-Jan-25 10:52 PM] jcheung#0000 so... not a huge amount [31-Jan-25 10:54 PM] jcheung#0000 over a few months that'll add up though i suppose [31-Jan-25 10:57 PM] archielvahr#0000 So once a contribution is made, it's "locked in". Pledges show intent and prevent people from doubling up production. There isn't really a deadline since we'll have a bit of a rolling construction period as gateways will come online over time. If it looks like there are specific materials that are pledged that aren't getting filled, then we will check in with the pledgers and maybe take some action to get those into sync with the other products {Reactions} 👌 (2) [31-Jan-25 10:58 PM] archielvahr#0000 800 TSH was pulled. We have ~2000 more to do total. (sorry I missed that) [31-Jan-25 11:01 PM] jcheung#0000 how should i pledge ongoing production [31-Jan-25 11:02 PM] jcheung#0000 right at the moment, looking like ~ 1/d HSE, ~ 17/d TSH [31-Jan-25 11:02 PM] jcheung#0000 conservatively [31-Jan-25 11:06 PM] spermatozoon_saloon#0000 Have you seen an Pr:Un Gateway update ETA for live release? [01-Feb-25 12:08 AM] pagy1234#0000 Pledged a little bit :D [01-Feb-25 12:08 AM] pagy1234#0000 emphasis on little [01-Feb-25 12:11 AM] pagy1234#0000 how do i give the money? [01-Feb-25 12:17 AM] jcheung#0000 tbh, you're probably better off keeping that for now and re-investing in yourself [01-Feb-25 12:18 AM] pagy1234#0000 eh, maybe [01-Feb-25 12:18 AM] pagy1234#0000 what do those shares do though? [01-Feb-25 12:19 AM] pagy1234#0000 like there 10mil shares of smt, but i dont get what it means [01-Feb-25 12:19 AM] jvaler#0000 you'll get some cut of the tax revenue the gateways generate [01-Feb-25 12:20 AM] jvaler#0000 afaik we don't have concrete numbers yet on what that would look like so 🤷‍♀️ [01-Feb-25 12:20 AM] pagy1234#0000 ohhh [01-Feb-25 12:20 AM] pagy1234#0000 I guess I wouldnt be able to get any cut if i dont have pro? [01-Feb-25 12:21 AM] jvaler#0000 probably. there will be so many different people to pay out to it'll be on the recipient to send the contract [01-Feb-25 12:21 AM] jvaler#0000 it's not fair to have one person send out 50 different conts lol [01-Feb-25 12:21 AM] pagy1234#0000 yeah fair enough lol [01-Feb-25 12:22 AM] jvaler#0000 @archielvahr just sent u conts for my afab pledges [01-Feb-25 12:22 AM] pagy1234#0000 do we have any idea how much the gates might make? [01-Feb-25 12:23 AM] jvaler#0000 . [01-Feb-25 12:23 AM] jvaler#0000 i'm not optimistic about it, but i think it's worthwhile regardless just for the sake of infrastructure [01-Feb-25 12:24 AM] pagy1234#0000 ah ok, im just wondering if it may be worth it invest a small amount in [01-Feb-25 12:24 AM] jvaler#0000 at your stage, absolutely not [01-Feb-25 12:24 AM] jvaler#0000 we don't even know when the gateways will be released yet lol [01-Feb-25 12:26 AM] jvaler#0000 at your scale you need low ROI, and right now AGC is indefinite ROI =P {Reactions} 👆 [01-Feb-25 12:27 AM] pagy1234#0000 haha, ok il hold off for a bit [01-Feb-25 10:33 AM] archielvahr#0000 (pinned) The rules and details are here: https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/adi-gateway-cooperative/ If anyone still has questions after reading this, lemme know and I will add them to the page. {Embed} https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/adi-gateway-cooperative/ ADI Gateway Cooperative | OOG Capital Management The ADI Gateway cooperative is a regional organization dedicated to the construction and operation of a gateway network. https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/mbZ_dki_BooFwq7JxIKLRGrrCM38r8xVFua3aJGj76E/https/oogcapitalmanagement.com/images/gateway-okay-narrow.png [01-Feb-25 10:33 AM] archielvahr#0000 Definitely don't contribute until you have "throwaway" levels of money. But at that point, go nuts 😉 [01-Feb-25 10:34 AM] archielvahr#0000 The payouts might actually end up coming from the governments. Which is nice because the UI for payouts is way nicer than contracts. Info about min payouts is on the above page. [01-Feb-25 10:45 AM] pagy1234#0000 Can I buy an absurdly small number of shares? [01-Feb-25 10:45 AM] pagy1234#0000 just for fun [01-Feb-25 10:45 AM] pagy1234#0000 or will that just make life hard for everyone [01-Feb-25 10:46 AM] pagy1234#0000 like im thinking of just putting like 5k, so 30 ish shares [01-Feb-25 10:53 AM] archielvahr#0000 Hehe yup,, go for it. [01-Feb-25 10:53 AM] archielvahr#0000 I reocmmend just contributing anything on the sheet you already make or have laying around [01-Feb-25 10:54 AM] pagy1234#0000 alr checked for that, have none of the materials you need D: [01-Feb-25 10:55 AM] archielvahr#0000 It's actually very helpful to have a large number of contributors, even if they are small. Since your vote on gateway planets will help us control the gateways we build [01-Feb-25 10:55 AM] pagy1234#0000 oh nice [01-Feb-25 10:55 AM] pagy1234#0000 how do i send you the money> [01-Feb-25 10:55 AM] pagy1234#0000 ? [01-Feb-25 10:56 AM] pagy1234#0000 just a buy order then cancel after payment? [01-Feb-25 10:56 AM] archielvahr#0000 Yep [01-Feb-25 10:56 AM] pagy1234#0000 kk [01-Feb-25 10:58 AM] pagy1234#0000 sent [01-Feb-25 10:59 AM] pagy1234#0000 yay [01-Feb-25 11:00 AM] sidepipe#0000 You are now the proud owner of a small percentage of a future gateway 😎 [01-Feb-25 11:00 AM] pagy1234#0000 lets gooo :D [01-Feb-25 11:01 AM] sidepipe#0000 You know, this is probably a good incentive to think about how we’d handle the payouts - maybe accruing money on the sheet until it hits a minimum threshold to pay out? [01-Feb-25 11:01 AM] sidepipe#0000 (Unless this has already been thought about) [01-Feb-25 11:02 AM] archielvahr#0000 Yup, that's the plan. It's outlined a bit in that doc. [01-Feb-25 11:03 AM] archielvahr#0000 So there's a ledger showing total income, then from that we divide out everyone by share count to get their total lifetime income. We have a ledger for payouts, so we can calculate the amount due to each partner. (their lifetime earnings minus all payouts made to them so far) [01-Feb-25 11:03 AM] sidepipe#0000 I should have guessed you’d thought about it already 😄 [01-Feb-25 11:03 AM] archielvahr#0000 Then if they have a pending amount greater than the min payout (probably 25k?) they can get a payout [01-Feb-25 11:04 AM] archielvahr#0000 that way if someone just doesn't get a payout, they don't "lose" it, they can get the larger payout later. [01-Feb-25 11:04 AM] pagy1234#0000 for the big fish 25k will probably be very frequent [01-Feb-25 11:04 AM] archielvahr#0000 I think big fish won't care to bother for less than a mil 😎 [01-Feb-25 11:04 AM] pagy1234#0000 but for my puny 64.something shares it will take decades to get 25k🤣 [01-Feb-25 11:05 AM] archielvahr#0000 We don't really know how it'll work out income-wise, but some real-life institutions with a min payment threshold will just send out the balance once a year even if it's under the threshold [01-Feb-25 11:06 AM] pagy1234#0000 i dunno if il still here in a year😂 [01-Feb-25 11:06 AM] archielvahr#0000 There are survivorship rules on the page also, heh [01-Feb-25 11:06 AM] sidepipe#0000 Sooo - how long until we calculate a fair market value for a gateway share based on the future payouts and start selling them like securities? 😄 [01-Feb-25 11:06 AM] tanda#0000 oh man [01-Feb-25 11:07 AM] archielvahr#0000 That's the "Direct Share Transfers" part of the page [01-Feb-25 11:07 AM] archielvahr#0000 By average input value and CX prices each share is worth $154.52. But the real value will come when we know how much cash they make 😎 [01-Feb-25 11:08 AM] archielvahr#0000 I sold Draconis some of my shares already [01-Feb-25 11:10 AM] sidepipe#0000 once we have a few payouts, we could come up with a price as a perpetuity of the average payments. we'd just need some interest rate to do that {Reactions} 💯 [01-Feb-25 11:10 AM] sidepipe#0000 or maybe it would be more accurate to find the PV of 3 years of payments or something like that, since the universe will be reset eventually 😄 [01-Feb-25 11:10 AM] sidepipe#0000 Pinned a message. [01-Feb-25 11:11 AM] sidepipe#0000 Pinned a message. [01-Feb-25 11:33 AM] jvaler#0000 made the percent number format 3 decimal places so your 41 shares actually shows lolol [01-Feb-25 11:33 AM] jvaler#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335302006717415515/image.png?ex=681501e7&is=6813b067&hm=63bc8eb47dd75e6e204249e909f3ce46c7dc476c7deda8ea6c4f144cee272f8c& [01-Feb-25 11:33 AM] pagy1234#0000 HAHAH [01-Feb-25 11:33 AM] pagy1234#0000 Thanks [01-Feb-25 11:34 AM] pagy1234#0000 Bro thats so small😭😭 [01-Feb-25 11:34 AM] pagy1234#0000 Like it might actually take me a decade to get the 25k [01-Feb-25 11:34 AM] jvaler#0000 @archielvahr should pledges be deleted once actualized? so it doesn't count twice or something [01-Feb-25 11:35 AM] jcheung#0000 probably not [01-Feb-25 11:36 AM] jcheung#0000 there's a column for delivered [01-Feb-25 11:36 AM] jcheung#0000 so if we add another column on pledges-and someone is working on it [01-Feb-25 11:37 AM] archielvahr#0000 Nope, I am adding a column to show how much of a pledge was completed [01-Feb-25 11:37 AM] jvaler#0000 ooh nice [01-Feb-25 11:37 AM] archielvahr#0000 Since someone might pledge 1000 SP in Dec, contribute 500 in Jan, then another 500 in Feb [01-Feb-25 11:38 AM] jcheung#0000 good to know that our minds work similarly [01-Feb-25 11:38 AM] jvaler#0000 ya i'm gonna be getting more CAAP payouts later, so the pledge will increase [01-Feb-25 11:39 AM] archielvahr#0000 Also it's set up to minimize the chance of me screwing something up 😅 The in-game contracts don't last forever, but for a few month we can go back and verify contributions since I put dates on it. In case there's a typo or something [01-Feb-25 11:41 AM] jvaler#0000 yeah i found that out trying to log data of faction conts i've recieved [01-Feb-25 11:41 AM] jvaler#0000 wish they did last forever =/ [01-Feb-25 11:43 AM] jcheung#0000 btw [01-Feb-25 11:44 AM] jcheung#0000 the intermediate calcs section? it's better as its own visible thing [01-Feb-25 11:45 AM] jcheung#0000 the formula to just output the final weighted output is.... not pretty [01-Feb-25 11:50 AM] jvaler#0000 woah i've never thought to use concat like that before, that's smart [01-Feb-25 11:50 AM] jcheung#0000 🤔 [01-Feb-25 11:51 AM] jcheung#0000 that's neat [01-Feb-25 11:57 AM] archielvahr#0000 So I use those intermediate columns to calculate W8 to Z8. I wanted to do it all in those cells but it got to be too much [01-Feb-25 11:57 AM] jcheung#0000 yeah, it's very doable in a single cell but for sanity's sake it's better you don't {Reactions} 😆 [01-Feb-25 11:57 AM] archielvahr#0000 But I am pretty pleased I can just punch in the upgrade numbers for a new gateway and it adds all the new mats to the calculator. [01-Feb-25 11:57 AM] jcheung#0000 hope you don't mind me fiddling around in the corner [01-Feb-25 11:57 AM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah no worries 🙂 [01-Feb-25 11:58 AM] pagy1234#0000 what the hell is this formula 😭 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335308300765364297/Screenshot_2025-02-02_at_1.58.12_AM.png?ex=681507c3&is=6813b643&hm=646ec24ffc73684c9ff2f69d4929309ca896ac2d0be9197bf174db3647b9b11c& [01-Feb-25 11:58 AM] pagy1234#0000 how can it be so long [01-Feb-25 11:59 AM] jcheung#0000 that's long? [01-Feb-25 11:59 AM] jcheung#0000 that's cute 😄 [01-Feb-25 11:59 AM] pagy1234#0000 well [01-Feb-25 11:59 AM] pagy1234#0000 it goes way off the screen [01-Feb-25 12:00 PM] pagy1234#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335308718501531670/Screenshot_2025-02-02_at_2.00.02_AM.png?ex=68150827&is=6813b6a7&hm=c501292c6e3c350c1ea632d83ba4477292f4617a5374190475673e13cbd99979& [01-Feb-25 12:00 PM] pagy1234#0000 its at least a little long [01-Feb-25 12:00 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah so those sums are the following: * Your actual material contributions * Your credit from cash contributions (all materials purchased with cash get pooled, and you get a proportion of them) * Any direct share transfers you got * Minus any of your shares transfered to someone else * Minus any materials purchased with bank funds that were credited to someone else (that only happens for Cash Managers, and I'm the only one at the moment) [01-Feb-25 12:01 PM] pagy1234#0000 damn, thats pretty insane [01-Feb-25 12:01 PM] archielvahr#0000 So if someone gives me 10m, I turn around and buy 4000 SP. I donate the 4k SP under my name, but transfer the shares from that purchase into the person who gave me 10m [01-Feb-25 12:03 PM] archielvahr#0000 The reason to track it like that is that: * All cash contributions get pooled. This prevents me from making "good" purchases for one person donating cash, and "bad" purchases for someone else * If I mess up and sell/lose/trade some SP I purchased, it remains on my personal balance sheet to make good later. [01-Feb-25 12:04 PM] archielvahr#0000 * Since there's like 8 people contributing SP,a nd I'm buying SP, and I'm making SP. I don't need to track my inventory, just the ledger transactions to keep it accurate [01-Feb-25 12:05 PM] pagy1234#0000 wow [01-Feb-25 12:05 PM] pagy1234#0000 a little complex [01-Feb-25 12:05 PM] pagy1234#0000 maybe il be making spreadsheets like that some day [01-Feb-25 12:06 PM] pagy1234#0000 for now i stick to `=product` and `=sum` :D [01-Feb-25 12:06 PM] archielvahr#0000 one day! [01-Feb-25 12:53 PM] jcheung#0000 done https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=0#gid=0&range=AU9 {Embed} https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=0 ADI Gateway Co-op https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/eGdC0YLkA9c6_n8rUXCx2gZv8MjECNl834Ijr_-_wwk/https/lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docs/AHkbwyIaVDKEMHJjEmcGJCtnk2yvAcPwcO2Du2Ubp0HovE3SDoiYVpPEa-Lg2-6RGBEspyPciGiwRnQT3S-HKvG3rv0FZGzVGPm4uNdRFtRyEF1Byo2qORN9%3Dw1200-h630-p [01-Feb-25 12:53 PM] jcheung#0000 hope you like it [01-Feb-25 12:54 PM] jcheung#0000 only 4 cells actually have values 👀 [01-Feb-25 12:55 PM] jvaler#0000 the inline bar charts can be multicolored?? :o [01-Feb-25 01:05 PM] archielvahr#0000 I think you just get two for bar types: `=SPARKLINE({F9/D9, E9/D9}, {"charttype","bar";"max",1;"color2","#f9a41b";"color1","#44f91b"})` [01-Feb-25 01:06 PM] archielvahr#0000 woahhhh neato, that's awesome 😄 [01-Feb-25 01:06 PM] jcheung#0000 the reason i did it that way though, was mostly for the % complete bit above [01-Feb-25 01:06 PM] jcheung#0000 single formula, gets weighted avg 😄 [01-Feb-25 01:07 PM] jcheung#0000 also i love let. love it so much. [01-Feb-25 06:14 PM] jcheung#0000 @archielvahr something looks wrong here {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335402863173566506/image.png?ex=6814b715&is=68136595&hm=6296bcad4045afaf5ccbb160eca76c07fea633d8de42df80c9a5976ecfec95a4& [01-Feb-25 06:32 PM] archielvahr#0000 Ahh that got resorted, ignore the override column. I will fix it [01-Feb-25 06:33 PM] jcheung#0000 i think the price overrides should go in tab gateway prices [01-Feb-25 06:33 PM] jcheung#0000 that way they won't get sorted to the wrong thing [01-Feb-25 06:41 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah I am adding a column for em [02-Feb-25 04:28 AM] evov#0000 Wondering if the introduction of 5k5k ships will have any impact on planned gateway routes / positions. [02-Feb-25 04:32 AM] evov#0000 Since it will need 3xVolume upgrades in order to fit the big ships through. Which only leaves 2 distance upgrads ( assuming 5 total upgrades ). = Linking radius of 20 instead of 25. [02-Feb-25 04:36 AM] evov#0000 At least for the leg that I'm focused on (ANT -> HRT) it might have an impact. Moving the gate location to IA-158 instead of 151 means it's less than 20 range to ANT and HRT ... meaning it's possible to connect those two CX's for 5k5k travel. Not as good for supporting local ANT region planets, but probably makes sense in the long term since I suspect a lot of CX-CX transport will be done using 5k5k ships in the future. [02-Feb-25 04:42 AM] evov#0000 I'm not certain, but I think the ANT/HRT route can handle 2k ships if the mid point is IA-158. And the MOR-BEN route can do it if the midpoint is the Nova System. I think both the north south routes - ANT-BEN and MOR-HRT will either be limited to 2k2k ships, or will need to have a 1 system gap in the middle. I haven't done an exhaustive search, so there might be other options available. [02-Feb-25 08:43 AM] jvaler#0000 @archielvahr it looks like SP is still needed for AGC, is it enough to warrant a new ECA base? or do you have anyone else with existing SP production? now that my norwick base isn't tied up in a co-op and my vulcan base isn't a rise feeder base anymore, i'm thinking of moving my phobos food industries to norwick and using phobos for actual electronics. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335621746539102299/image.png?ex=6814da2f&is=681388af&hm=f5703bc8ec84c20f103924676baec366dea29388970d3ea7449bd55c56b11531& [02-Feb-25 08:44 AM] jvaler#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335621752289755218/image.png?ex=6814da30&is=681388b0&hm=2f65fa8b0a8e54b818532484c85d373f1282ad12b34e1aced3deb6fbff668eec& [02-Feb-25 08:46 AM] jvaler#0000 CBL is also made in ECA, i could do that too [02-Feb-25 08:49 AM] evov#0000 Bonus is - any overproduction of CBL is a reasonable money printing option. [02-Feb-25 08:53 AM] jvaler#0000 prunplanner says otherwise, i'm investigating why that is rn {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335624195681419294/image.png?ex=6814dc76&is=68138af6&hm=4614e63ff64b300a88fc51896d090082f1f1d87c1313f4ab197a001b0dbf6997& [02-Feb-25 08:56 AM] jvaler#0000 are you familiar with this recipe? any of these input prices look off to you? i'm looking at CXPCs and things look normal {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335624771223683113/image.png?ex=6814dd00&is=68138b80&hm=69006835a716a956b6272cae413714985d028cd2bc3f904cffd9642ffb50a30d& [02-Feb-25 08:56 AM] jvaler#0000 cause for it to be profitable on the MM it needs to cost under 91k/u [02-Feb-25 08:56 AM] jvaler#0000 wait [02-Feb-25 08:56 AM] jvaler#0000 ~~experts... i'm stupid~~ nvm that only took 300 off the cost lolol [02-Feb-25 08:56 AM] evov#0000 or some of the inputs are priced more expensive on the CX than is needed... [02-Feb-25 08:57 AM] evov#0000 for example.... BE being priced at 2.2k vs 2k could make the difference between it being highly proffitable vs losing money. [02-Feb-25 08:59 AM] jvaler#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335625527343714335/image.png?ex=6814ddb4&is=68138c34&hm=89ef6cdabdeb25d9b9c4665b25e0f66b19d194cf32339bac7dc7594867642977& [02-Feb-25 08:59 AM] evov#0000 Like most things at the end of a longish production line - there's a lot of links in the chain. Which link is more/less profitable can change a lot. Looking at the line as a whole is the best option imo. [02-Feb-25 09:00 AM] jvaler#0000 unless i spin up an ASM base i'm only gonna be interacting with the ~~LI &~~ HCC chains, the rest would be bought off the CX [02-Feb-25 09:01 AM] jvaler#0000 lemme look [02-Feb-25 09:01 AM] evov#0000 CBL - for example - If cost of the inputs are 84k - it's more proffitable than IDC's. If cost of inputs are 91k - you're losing money. [02-Feb-25 09:02 AM] evov#0000 In the scheme of things, it's very reliant on the cost of the input materials. [02-Feb-25 09:04 AM] jvaler#0000 as far as i can tell the math doesn't work out for it right now [02-Feb-25 09:05 AM] evov#0000 All good. I can always make more as needed. [02-Feb-25 09:06 AM] jvaler#0000 oh you're already making CBL for AGC? [02-Feb-25 09:07 AM] evov#0000 Got you fam! {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335627638362083389/image.png?ex=6814dfab&is=68138e2b&hm=73e5b29330f5a9147b1cf116777695e130de5482ec1c22eb139e84ed9925c810& [02-Feb-25 09:08 AM] evov#0000 I'm already up around 9k SP in hand. So I can start switching production from that over to CBL's as needed. [02-Feb-25 09:08 AM] jvaler#0000 oh that's almost enough for the current goals {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335627805517545572/image.png?ex=6814dfd3&is=68138e53&hm=7be5d23063c2ddbd1da47b6c741600fab9590f828e9888096b9b2b369f4f11d4& [02-Feb-25 09:08 AM] evov#0000 I kind of want to... build up enough stock so I can potentially "sell" a full gate. Because I think that would be cool. {Reactions} 😆 [02-Feb-25 09:09 AM] jvaler#0000 do you plan on pledging these? cause if so i should probably plan on finding something else to do with my phobos base [02-Feb-25 09:09 AM] moke.#0000 I've got ECAs running SPs now as of about a week ago [02-Feb-25 09:10 AM] moke.#0000 Planning to donate once I've got my roi covered. [02-Feb-25 09:10 AM] evov#0000 Depends where things are at when the gate's go live. Pledges are very different to production. And there's a lot of time between now and then. [02-Feb-25 09:10 AM] jvaler#0000 but you said you have it in hand lol. and 9k is > the current SP deficit [02-Feb-25 09:11 AM] evov#0000 I intend to have 1 full gate +upgrades on hand when the time comes. I'm working on the pre-cursor bits to the parts that aren't available yet. [02-Feb-25 09:11 AM] jvaler#0000 okay so your prod isn't related to AGC anyways? .-. [02-Feb-25 09:12 AM] jvaler#0000 how much per day? [02-Feb-25 09:14 AM] evov#0000 It will be part of the network yes. Depends on how much cash AGC has if I sell the gate to the AGC, or I "contribute" a full gate for whatever % stake that's worth. Just as a personal goal, I want to get to the point where I'm in a position to "sell" a full gate... just to be able to say I did it. Since that kinda feels like a "final boss" when it comes to the production side of this game. [02-Feb-25 09:15 AM] jvaler#0000 okay so it'd be a possible 5th gate to AGC's currently planned 4 gates [02-Feb-25 09:15 AM] jvaler#0000 gotcha [02-Feb-25 09:17 AM] jvaler#0000 wait no 4 planned, i read that wrong [02-Feb-25 09:17 AM] moke.#0000 Off the top of my head i believe I'm doing just under 200 (160-170?) a day right now. But I'm not at my PC to check. [02-Feb-25 09:17 AM] evov#0000 There's still a lot of time to go. I'm at a point where I've basically produced all the stuff needed for 1 gate and started to shut off those production lines (TSH/RSH/LIT/PSH) etc So mostly, just keeping an eye out for if there's going to be difficulties in meeting targets on those harder to produce items... if I need to switch those lines back on or not. [02-Feb-25 09:19 AM] jvaler#0000 hmm okay... i'll wait for archiel's response to my ping {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335630698798907463/image.png?ex=6814e285&is=68139105&hm=fa9476acb907ded812fb9f1549046a8971b22a8165b837176e8d0feca8142c32& [02-Feb-25 09:19 AM] evov#0000 This is my stockpile as at a few days ago. When I include the stuff still on planet, all the boxes are green. It's just the pre-cursors to the red stuff that I'm working on now. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335630728385531955/image.png?ex=6814e28c&is=6813910c&hm=317884bbfeb92fff5349604a6e571721236a069a126b16e22d58a1cc6c76f971& [02-Feb-25 09:20 AM] evov#0000 For reference - the green stuff I'm pretty sure you can easily source the volumes needed from the CX. Yellow stuff is stuff the CX won't be able to supply in enough volume. Red isn't available yet. [02-Feb-25 09:21 AM] jvaler#0000 makes sense [02-Feb-25 10:15 AM] archielvahr#0000 My open orders get a decent stream of SP: [02-Feb-25 10:15 AM] archielvahr#0000 http://kortham.net/temp/firefox_2025-02-02_10-13-41.png {Embed} http://kortham.net/temp/firefox_2025-02-02_10-13-41.png https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/cvYVZufnut3DmR2Ae6gCJM8zsGogKtTu3oyEIU2xPaI/http/kortham.net/temp/firefox_2025-02-02_10-13-41.png [02-Feb-25 10:16 AM] archielvahr#0000 One of us should check in with allocater's pledge of 10k SP [02-Feb-25 10:16 AM] archielvahr#0000 SP had sort of been one of the more challenging gateway line items, but it's doing pretty good [02-Feb-25 10:17 AM] archielvahr#0000 I set up a whole line for dedicated CBL production a while ago, and I find it does pretty well. I like making large amounts of BE because it also makes AL and SIO and it runs pretty fast. [02-Feb-25 10:18 AM] archielvahr#0000 So I don't think I can give you a hard yes/no on your ECA base, but hopefully that's enough info to help inform your decision [02-Feb-25 10:18 AM] archielvahr#0000 HCC can be a bottleneck for CBL [02-Feb-25 11:20 AM] jvaler#0000 hmmm... i think i'm gonna find something else to do with the base. y'all seem to have the SP handled and it'd need way more metallurgy feeding into it than i expected [02-Feb-25 11:36 AM] archielvahr#0000 Heh and it just keeps coming [02-Feb-25 11:36 AM] archielvahr#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335665183967674470/image.png?ex=681502a3&is=6813b123&hm=7fa2add23d7e9f691eeaf879004a1713e28d6827e97249345f44e40544532072& [02-Feb-25 11:36 AM] archielvahr#0000 You can always make a WAL base to feed the insatiable hunger for HCBs [02-Feb-25 11:43 AM] jvaler#0000 i could, but i was hoping to repurpose my phobos base [02-Feb-25 09:24 PM] moke.#0000 Slight correction - I misremembered. Currently 3/5 experts. [02-Feb-25 09:24 PM] moke.#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1335813137219326073/image.png?ex=6814e3ae&is=6813922e&hm=a0bc888f1c3e6beca3d24e607538802a8923ce32d0bd68c5f2713013808a93b5& {Reactions} 💯 [03-Feb-25 07:57 AM] razenpok#0000 Waaait, @archielvahr is this "Galactic Gateway Coordination" thing just another attempt of your book cooking? 🗿 {Reactions} 💀 [03-Feb-25 09:44 AM] archielvahr#0000 I didn't know book cooking would involve so many books! [03-Feb-25 09:47 AM] sidepipe#0000 I prefer to think of it as creative accounting 😁 [03-Feb-25 09:48 AM] jcheung#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1336000428244205739/cookingthebooks.png?ex=6814e95b&is=681397db&hm=a732f69b0fe0626bf83dc549ab3f50f44352d2aaa38c4ce05bfa681ca4390964& {Reactions} 😂 [03-Feb-25 10:57 PM] survivorbob#0000 One time I lived in a place where the building down the street had a fire. It turned out someone left one of their books too close to their stove {Reactions} 😬 [03-Feb-25 10:58 PM] survivorbob#0000 Literal cooking of books 🔥 {Reactions} 🔥 [04-Feb-25 10:50 PM] archielvahr#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1336559453620666420/mOvuYhY.jpeg?ex=6814f7bd&is=6813a63d&hm=09003197b0739bf5086fb9e4e333bfd31ddf3f4cc99ee9cccdb74e359c802c88& {Reactions} 💀 😆 (3) [16-Feb-25 09:53 AM] archielvahr#0000 Does anyone know how to get ahold of sn3k? I want to contact them about their gateway pledges [16-Feb-25 10:20 AM] jcheung#0000 ~~step on it?~~ [16-Feb-25 10:56 AM] tanda#0000 https://tenor.com/view/no-step-on-snek-no-step-on-snek-flag-flag-snek-flag-snek-gif-7614828420828463868 {Embed} https://tenor.com/view/no-step-on-snek-no-step-on-snek-flag-flag-snek-flag-snek-gif-7614828420828463868 https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/xy593dOMyGRubYL9oG7EzSkbeao-BvuUKn-HEjGumEM/https/media.tenor.com/aa1OGokHgvwAAAAe/no-step-on-snek-no-step-on-snek-flag.png [16-Feb-25 01:42 PM] potaterror#0000 Please do not. I can see a chain of events following that, since we're talking about gateways: [16-Feb-25 01:42 PM] potaterror#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1340770302698721445/c1c-2523246191.jpg?ex=68147766&is=681325e6&hm=0f2aabde6cf54a7185574280af6bd6a637b62706f16d912f0bd8031bfdae2de8& [16-Feb-25 01:42 PM] potaterror#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1340770341148168263/th-567784445.jpg?ex=6814776f&is=681325ef&hm=f0f2fc7bf6661bc0bcf67a6453b784b33828ba69bcf65dc972a6e1d185b17ea2& [16-Feb-25 01:43 PM] potaterror#0000 ...and then AIC became the Woolong. [17-Feb-25 02:28 PM] archielvahr#0000 I am suspecting that we might need more dedicated LIT production for the gateways. I will keep you all informed as I hear back from folks [17-Feb-25 02:30 PM] sidepipe#0000 I can probably get LIT if needed - I've been on the lookout for a fairly simple production line my next few permits 🙂 [17-Feb-25 02:30 PM] archielvahr#0000 I'd say go for it. That'd be great thanks 😄 [17-Feb-25 02:31 PM] archielvahr#0000 A few people who pledged have gone AWOL and I think that includes most of our LIT pledges 😅 [17-Feb-25 02:33 PM] sidepipe#0000 It looks like LIT are basically all GF, so I'd just need to find space for some of those and maybe an NE tap [17-Feb-25 02:33 PM] sidepipe#0000 I'll take suggestions if anyone knows of any good NE planets 😄 [17-Feb-25 02:38 PM] archielvahr#0000 oof you might need to fly out to AJ-135e. At least it has a COGC already. Nothing really closer to ANT unless you end up with much lower numbers like Nova Honshu.. And they get abysmal after that [17-Feb-25 02:40 PM] sidepipe#0000 well, good thing I have this fancy new HCB ship [17-Feb-25 02:40 PM] sidepipe#0000 might not need to visit too often 😄 [17-Feb-25 02:40 PM] archielvahr#0000 😎 [18-Feb-25 12:38 AM] evov#0000 < Still producing LIT over/above my goal qty. Since I'm pretty sure it'll be undersupplied. [18-Feb-25 05:18 AM] razenpok#0000 I can fill in RDE if snek ded {Reactions} 👍 [18-Feb-25 09:39 AM] taiyibureau#0000 Yeah, no good NE tap anywhere near ANT [18-Feb-25 10:25 AM] potaterror#0000 I already operate out of AJ, maybe I should just look at commissioning some gas haulers and setting up an operation there. At the very least I can help out with supply transport for anyone who does. [18-Feb-25 10:26 AM] potaterror#0000 Is the demand even worth it though? [18-Feb-25 10:41 AM] sidepipe#0000 For NE? Probably not unless you want to make your own LIT 😄 [23-Feb-25 01:20 AM] pi3142718#0000 I’ve got a good amount of NE (~4900) I’d be willing to sell for shares in the gateway project [23-Feb-25 01:26 AM] pi3142718#0000 Also, looking at the rules of the coop again, as we add more gateways, we add more shares, right? Doesn’t this dilute the ownership stake of existing shareholders? [23-Feb-25 01:45 AM] jcheung#0000 it also adds to the overall income [23-Feb-25 01:45 AM] jcheung#0000 it does potentially subsidize the lower performing gates a little bit though if i understand it right [24-Feb-25 10:51 AM] archielvahr#0000 Correct, more gateways means more shares, but if you own a whole gateway worth of shares, and we add another gateway to the pool, you still have that whole gateway. Each gateway we add is expected to improve the value of all the other gateways. A subway with only two stops isn't terribly useful, but each time you add a stop to the end of the subway line, the combinations of potential travel use cases increase drastically. So those original stops become more useful too. I expect that to be the case for gateways. [24-Feb-25 10:52 AM] archielvahr#0000 I don't have any GF, but that soudns like a great deal for someone who can make the LIT 😄 [24-Feb-25 07:00 PM] spermatozoon_saloon#0000 @archielvahr Are pledges to be made out to your account? [25-Feb-25 01:40 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yup! [26-Feb-25 08:23 AM] hectorino_547#0000 I would like to contribute money to the gateway project, do you accept ₦? [26-Feb-25 12:24 PM] archielvahr#0000 Yep, I will take any currency, I can make them all work [27-Feb-25 05:01 PM] .urpalhal#0000 I can donate some TRU [27-Feb-25 05:02 PM] .urpalhal#0000 like the 3300 that is un pledged. [27-Feb-25 05:05 PM] .urpalhal#0000 How should I make that donation? [27-Feb-25 05:27 PM] jcheung#0000 send to archiel [27-Feb-25 06:06 PM] archielvahr#0000 Oh yup, just send it over and I'll put it on the chart for you [28-Feb-25 02:50 AM] jcheung#0000 how many shares would you be willing to let that go for? [28-Feb-25 03:01 AM] pagy1234#0000 donating another small bit of money to make my shares more than 0.001% (currently 0.0008%) [28-Feb-25 03:03 AM] pagy1234#0000 lol [28-Feb-25 03:03 AM] pagy1234#0000 conts sent to Archiel [28-Feb-25 08:32 AM] pi3142718#0000 6600? @jcheung [28-Feb-25 10:58 AM] jcheung#0000 Archiel, when you have a moment can you make this share transfer please [28-Feb-25 04:24 PM] jab.sh#0000 so how does this work? I pledge money, I get x shares, and then I earn that portion from gateway fees or something? [28-Feb-25 04:50 PM] jcheung#0000 Yes, whenever gateways go live [28-Feb-25 04:50 PM] jcheung#0000 Can also contribute materials [28-Feb-25 04:50 PM] jcheung#0000 Could be live next month, or years from now-we'll never know [28-Feb-25 05:03 PM] sidepipe#0000 Rules and the spreadsheet for contributions should be pinned if you want all the details 🙂 {Reactions} 👍 [28-Feb-25 11:56 PM] jcheung#0000 @archielvahr not sure if you saw this 👀 [28-Feb-25 11:56 PM] archielvahr#0000 Can do [28-Feb-25 11:56 PM] jcheung#0000 ty [01-Mar-25 12:01 AM] archielvahr#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1345274647599382540/image.png?ex=68150865&is=6813b6e5&hm=d9f1b5de018fa0b60953d530da16747c7e8f9a073340f524b4cf1e93f5195931& [01-Mar-25 12:01 AM] archielvahr#0000 And the numbers add and subtract properly. Assuming I got that direction correct. jcheung9941 lost shared, PiBoy gained them [01-Mar-25 12:04 AM] jcheung#0000 yes, thank you {Reactions} 👍 [04-Mar-25 09:03 PM] jab.sh#0000 looks like you have the buyer and seller backwards? or the notes is backwards [04-Mar-25 09:06 PM] archielvahr#0000 jcheung bought NE and sold shares. I think the transfer and the notes are both correct..? [04-Mar-25 09:08 PM] jab.sh#0000 jcheung is the "share seller" but he bought NE? [04-Mar-25 09:08 PM] jab.sh#0000 I might just be confused [04-Mar-25 09:08 PM] tanda#0000 he sold shares to buy NE [04-Mar-25 09:09 PM] tanda#0000 so when jcheung bought NE, the currency exchanged to Piboy was shares [04-Mar-25 09:10 PM] jab.sh#0000 gotcha [18-Mar-25 11:44 AM] archielvahr#0000 Hi everyone, I just shared the March 2025 gateway update in the announcement channel #agc-information . Happy to answer any questions here! {Reactions} 🎉 (3) [18-Mar-25 12:02 PM] jcheung#0000 I want to steal that last 2% of cash with some tsh >.> [18-Mar-25 12:03 PM] jcheung#0000 As a side note i may need to revisit my original pledges, some things have changed since i originally made them [18-Mar-25 01:04 PM] archielvahr#0000 Definitely can make that happen! [18-Mar-25 01:05 PM] archielvahr#0000 I'm okay going over since I have some people who expressed interest in contributing cash but haven't yet [19-Mar-25 02:43 AM] vanarazor#0000 I honestly wish I could contribute but I might have to wait for the next gateway ( not even sure what's the whole gateway thing for ) ( is that like stargate SG !) _it does look like it_ [19-Mar-25 02:52 AM] potaterror#0000 They offer the ability to create routes between planets in different systems, essentially allowing groups of players to invest in a big infrastructure project to draw a link in the universe map instead of having to fly through intermediary systems. {Reactions} 🍉 [19-Mar-25 02:53 AM] vanarazor#0000 _ohhh!_ [19-Mar-25 08:21 AM] jcheung#0000 It's exactly like a stargate, except shittier {Reactions} 🤣 [19-Mar-25 08:22 AM] jcheung#0000 They only work in linked pairs instead of connecting tk a network {Reactions} 🍉 [19-Mar-25 11:04 AM] archielvahr#0000 Yep. Faster flight between key locations. [19-Mar-25 11:08 AM] archielvahr#0000 Yeah it is best for larger players who have so much money/resources they don't know what to do with it. With gateways we can get the money flowing around the economy. A significant amount of the 262m we has gone to mid size or smaller players [19-Mar-25 01:00 PM] vanarazor#0000 A true fan!! 🪭 [19-Mar-25 06:36 PM] tanda#0000 More like EVE's stargates, then [20-Mar-25 03:02 PM] archielvahr#0000 Can you build them in eve? [20-Mar-25 04:50 PM] tanda#0000 No, I don't think they allowed player stargates ever [20-Mar-25 05:14 PM] .shiva.#0000 ehhhh [20-Mar-25 05:14 PM] .shiva.#0000 https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Navigation_structures {Embed} https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Navigation_structures Navigation structures [20-Mar-25 05:15 PM] .shiva.#0000 jump bridges are gates in like 99% of the ways that you'd think of [20-Mar-25 05:16 PM] tanda#0000 oh man when did these things get added [20-Mar-25 05:16 PM] tanda#0000 they really are pretty much player owned stargates [20-Mar-25 05:16 PM] .shiva.#0000 years ago now. even before those, PoS jump bridges worked the same way, just a bit more awkward [20-Mar-25 05:17 PM] .shiva.#0000 and those were around for over a decade [20-Mar-25 05:19 PM] .shiva.#0000 so really they've had player made "gates" longer than they haven't [21-Mar-25 07:00 AM] random_di5cord_user#0000 The gates were definately around in eve before 2020 or so... (and yes, jump bridges were there much much longer but weren't quite the same thing). [23-Mar-25 07:13 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Does AGC have any plans yet for VF production or a VF supplier in mind? [23-Mar-25 07:14 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Just know I exist, supplying the BEN, MOR and ANT markets with just the best SF and FF currently, and hopefully VF in the future 😄 [23-Mar-25 07:15 AM] vanarazor#0000 whaat's VF? [23-Mar-25 07:18 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Vortex Fuel. It will be required to operate gateways. [23-Mar-25 07:42 AM] vanarazor#0000 wow [23-Mar-25 10:02 AM] .urpalhal#0000 Not at the moment I believe [23-Mar-25 10:02 AM] .urpalhal#0000 Mostly bc it is not even in the test server [25-Mar-25 05:16 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 I see. I hope you guys will remember me for VF. I would be happy to strike exclusive deals with governments to supply them regularly at fixed competitive rates 🙂 {Reactions} 👍 [25-Mar-25 10:55 AM] pxlfox.#0000 Please post your request in #agp-operations . This channel is for the upcoming gateways. (Don’t worry, it’s not your fault those acronyms are so similar 😅) [25-Mar-25 10:55 AM] batman_project#0000 Oooooooohhhhh my bad big off [25-Mar-25 10:56 AM] pxlfox.#0000 no worries [25-Mar-25 10:59 AM] batman_project#0000 https://tenor.com/view/fish-rizz-funny-fortnite-gif-3013456226482013689 {Embed} https://tenor.com/view/fish-rizz-funny-fortnite-gif-3013456226482013689 https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/HOyzuPLnfgFz1BhCASeVS1mUgIODAY89KVe6op1Nqdk/https/media.tenor.com/KdHyeNWmRfkAAAAe/fish-rizz.png [25-Mar-25 10:59 AM] batman_project#0000 fixed [25-Mar-25 03:53 PM] jab.sh#0000 what's your SF/FF price? [29-Mar-25 09:45 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 I sell at the CX prices 🙂 [29-Mar-25 09:46 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 But VF will be different i believe 😄 [29-Mar-25 10:17 AM] jab.sh#0000 fair enough [08-Apr-25 04:30 PM] archielvahr#0000 Upkeep costs for gateways has been reduced: [08-Apr-25 04:30 PM] archielvahr#0000 http://kortham.net/temp/firefox_2025-04-08_16-29-49.png {Embed} http://kortham.net/temp/firefox_2025-04-08_16-29-49.png https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/x9d7fNhnXR_W_OARZucIZNIhvBB38whzkCd3X0xWZsw/http/kortham.net/temp/firefox_2025-04-08_16-29-49.png [08-Apr-25 04:30 PM] archielvahr#0000 very significant reduction! [08-Apr-25 05:45 PM] jcheung#0000 I need to remember to send you some stuff [09-Apr-25 03:32 AM] evov#0000 Thats a great change. Would be cool if the build cost dropped a bit as well imo. [10-Apr-25 08:13 PM] optimizedfunction#0000 any place I can look at prices for the gateways with and/or without upgrades? [10-Apr-25 08:24 PM] tanda#0000 https://discord.com/channels/1183243037430796339/1293249484418977852/1335286909584539861 [10-Apr-25 08:25 PM] tanda#0000 Check the pins overall, but I think OOG's website has some good detail on it [10-Apr-25 09:10 PM] optimizedfunction#0000 yea found it, thank you :) {Reactions} 👍 [10-Apr-25 11:57 PM] archielvahr#0000 There is also the "Gateway Tiers" sheet in this workbook [10-Apr-25 11:57 PM] archielvahr#0000 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=1901786732#gid=1901786732 {Embed} https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=1901786732 ADI Gateway Co-op https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/6El_daXTrOmStFwv_yHqK2ImafrB5lS1C7Oa7tYUxnc/https/lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docs/AHkbwyKyonKw5iBkPFryXhp0Jw1WbBHoCUaG_P9HdHXpNtNasIRPAltikC1fWc1fj_ZEdzX73fb_akM4I5jdRpOwMX9EtrnOvXbaQzJ8HXbWqU5qAZAJbO6e%3Dw1200-h630-p [10-Apr-25 11:57 PM] archielvahr#0000 Which lays out all the upgrades {Reactions} hearty [11-Apr-25 12:01 AM] .urpalhal#0000 Ooh I have more TRU for you {Reactions} truss [11-Apr-25 12:01 AM] zenwhisper#0000 Hi all. I'm Zen, newly joined. [11-Apr-25 12:03 AM] zenwhisper#0000 To recap my inro in the airlock, I have 70% of a base GW gathered, and I'm the largest producer of ES in prepping for the GW consumables. [11-Apr-25 12:03 AM] jcheung#0000 mind if i ask what upgrades you had planned and where that gate will go? [11-Apr-25 12:04 AM] jcheung#0000 i'm just curious 😄 [11-Apr-25 12:06 AM] zenwhisper#0000 None and none. I knew having a base gate at the ready would be "helpful". I know we need to get the core 4 CXs linked first. I eventually want to get out to the RIM, but realistically I know after the core 4 CXs, if any of the new resource drops are hard to get to, we'll likely need GWs out to them before general expansion. [11-Apr-25 12:10 AM] jcheung#0000 well, i don't know if you've browsed any of the pinned stuff, but our first gates are planned to BEN via Hekaton 😄 [11-Apr-25 12:10 AM] jcheung#0000 i feel like there may have been some other people coordinating a gate from BEN around here somewhere... [11-Apr-25 12:11 AM] zenwhisper#0000 Considering I run BEN-ANT all of the time I'll be interested in getting that set-up. [11-Apr-25 12:11 AM] jcheung#0000 ah. here we go. perhaps you'd like to touch base with them too? 😄 [11-Apr-25 12:12 AM] zenwhisper#0000 Sure, where are they at? [11-Apr-25 12:13 AM] jcheung#0000 i suppose i can just @eminence32 and wait 😄 [11-Apr-25 12:19 AM] zenwhisper#0000 Thanks. I'll check back in tomorrow. Got to get some sleep. 🙂 [11-Apr-25 12:20 AM] archielvahr#0000 Hi Zen and welcome! [11-Apr-25 12:20 AM] zenwhisper#0000 Hi Archiel, thanks for the invite! [11-Apr-25 12:20 AM] archielvahr#0000 The other thing I'll point you at is: https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/posts/gateway-update-mar-2025/ {Embed} https://oogcapitalmanagement.com/posts/gateway-update-mar-2025/ Gateway Update, March 2025 | OOG Capital Management Pledge collection proceeds. See our most wanted items and join the cooperative! https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/bVhx6k1HqAjugBUF1oMR9iKijuSgg2vNPyz_h1a34Xc/https/oogcapitalmanagement.com/images/gateway-march-2025-narrow.png [11-Apr-25 12:21 AM] archielvahr#0000 And yeah, we can reconvene later also. [11-Apr-25 12:21 AM] archielvahr#0000 I think the BEN folks might need help but we'll see 🙂 [11-Apr-25 12:21 AM] archielvahr#0000 I am also heading to bed. [11-Apr-25 12:21 AM] zenwhisper#0000 Sleep well. [11-Apr-25 12:27 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Ooh interesting! I am planning to supply all gateways with fuel so you might come in handy 🙂 [11-Apr-25 12:30 AM] zenwhisper#0000 Naming my company Zen Interstellar Propellant seems a bit prophetic at this point. Glad to be interesting! Do really got to go though. Bye! {Reactions} 🤣 [11-Apr-25 12:30 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Bye! [11-Apr-25 12:31 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Wheres all this [11-Apr-25 12:32 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Why isnt BEN gateway stuff public ( or if it is, then why do I not see it anywhere? ) [11-Apr-25 12:32 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 How are we expecting pledges without people knowing [11-Apr-25 12:33 AM] jcheung#0000 well [11-Apr-25 12:33 AM] jcheung#0000 to be fair to them [11-Apr-25 12:33 AM] jcheung#0000 we're in an antares region chat, maybe they have their own area [11-Apr-25 12:34 AM] kyubi_otsutsuki_2071#0000 I thought the gateway stuff was still on test server, which i last heard a few hours ago [11-Apr-25 12:34 AM] jcheung#0000 in fact, i would assume that they have their own server 😅 [11-Apr-25 12:34 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 They dont though.... [11-Apr-25 12:34 AM] jcheung#0000 https://tenor.com/bUoaR.gif {Embed} https://tenor.com/view/oopsies-ohno-gif-25793283 https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/sO2oxnbR-Cw-ogCTHfrKniBwBpi2ttt_UEHUxCFggQU/https/media.tenor.com/LX1reyWcd8EAAAAe/oopsies-ohno.png [11-Apr-25 12:34 AM] kyubi_otsutsuki_2071#0000 Nothing on UFO [11-Apr-25 12:35 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 If there was something which was public, I think I would probably know [11-Apr-25 12:35 AM] kyubi_otsutsuki_2071#0000 searched via browse channels and roles nothing shows up on Insitor's either [11-Apr-25 12:35 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Yea i know....BEST also operates through UFO's Benten channels [11-Apr-25 12:36 AM] jcheung#0000 can figure it out later 😄 [11-Apr-25 12:36 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Yea, its probably just some limited players to avoid there being 500 people and needing to manage all that [11-Apr-25 12:37 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 But if thats the case then i dont think we'll ever be able to make the gateways [11-Apr-25 12:37 AM] jcheung#0000 ~~we only have 275 people~~ [11-Apr-25 12:37 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 ~~Figure of speech~~ [11-Apr-25 12:37 AM] jcheung#0000 as has been demonstrated, there are individual players who are making great efforts to assemble their own personal gates [11-Apr-25 12:38 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 I only know evov [11-Apr-25 12:38 AM] jcheung#0000 so we'll get the gates one way or another between CXs [11-Apr-25 12:38 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 And he also has 1.6 billion in equity so not surprising [11-Apr-25 12:38 AM] jcheung#0000 i mean zen says they're about 70% on one, probably base model [11-Apr-25 12:39 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Is that them alone or all of RIM? [11-Apr-25 12:39 AM] jcheung#0000 great question [11-Apr-25 12:39 AM] jcheung#0000 prolly save it for when they're awake 😄 [11-Apr-25 12:39 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Alone is impressive, if its RIM then not so much since iirc RIM has big players 🙂 [11-Apr-25 12:39 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Yea speculation doesnt help [11-Apr-25 12:39 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 I gotta sleep too so bye! [11-Apr-25 12:54 AM] eminence32#0000 There is a sharable link for that doc, but I'm traveling right now and can't pull it up. I'll share it as soon as I'm back at a computer [11-Apr-25 01:11 AM] pagy1234#0000 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=0 {Embed} https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1oET7LURFw6m-3iKu_5n8iT2SWS4PU-P-hiH6fMazWmU/edit?gid=0 ADI Gateway Co-op https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/6El_daXTrOmStFwv_yHqK2ImafrB5lS1C7Oa7tYUxnc/https/lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docs/AHkbwyKyonKw5iBkPFryXhp0Jw1WbBHoCUaG_P9HdHXpNtNasIRPAltikC1fWc1fj_ZEdzX73fb_akM4I5jdRpOwMX9EtrnOvXbaQzJ8HXbWqU5qAZAJbO6e%3Dw1200-h630-p [11-Apr-25 01:12 AM] pagy1234#0000 oh this one is ADI the one you are asking for is BEN [11-Apr-25 08:53 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Yea 🙂 [11-Apr-25 08:53 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Okay, take your time, thank you! [11-Apr-25 09:32 AM] archielvahr#0000 I believe the Benten sheet is here: [11-Apr-25 09:32 AM] archielvahr#0000 (pinned) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ho6zu_fic6sz5avIv1_O1sLVHjDpRGbbkZEgb8152s/edit?gid=1302426201#gid=1302426201 {Embed} https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15ho6zu_fic6sz5avIv1_O1sLVHjDpRGbbkZEgb8152s/edit?gid=1302426201 Benten Gateway Planning https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/ia569GJeKVBtcOlSkl0vNSwfMsIqfBxKBnZfmHNj_b8/https/lh7-us.googleusercontent.com/docs/AHkbwyLbToWGxIdfxlFTgFkMoGAHErQ3nxDDiWjYaX8WhsGde56NGmflsfKRsuTZxrBU7jBvKe2G1S9oS0uYVM3-4caEvdubQ5Gyz-odNm3FBtGKXRwzymnI%3Dw1200-h630-p [11-Apr-25 10:14 AM] optimizedfunction#0000 Thank you Archiel 🙂 But a public sheet with no publicity is almost a private one [11-Apr-25 10:17 AM] jcheung#0000 Pinned a message. [11-Apr-25 11:41 AM] archielvahr#0000 I'm not sure exactly where it's supposed to lie on the public - private spectrum 😆 [11-Apr-25 12:05 PM] kyubi_otsutsuki_2071#0000 Anonymity is a form of security, however not reliable compared to other methods [11-Apr-25 12:12 PM] jcheung#0000 it's shared now, let's let it be 😄 [11-Apr-25 04:00 PM] zenwhisper#0000 Just jumping on far a minute. It's 70% of one GW and it's all mine. Also it was nearly all built by me from the ore on up: {Reactions} 🎉 [11-Apr-25 04:00 PM] zenwhisper#0000 {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1360358893116592310/image.png?ex=681489b2&is=68133832&hm=ee7ee91f7768a5bbf272b88e08a5937d42bf97e613e76940a7444b243020e4a9& {Reactions} 👏 [11-Apr-25 04:00 PM] zenwhisper#0000 Took me since September to do it and not wreck my personal economy. [11-Apr-25 04:01 PM] zenwhisper#0000 Baseline GW [11-Apr-25 04:01 PM] zenwhisper#0000 Bye til later [11-Apr-25 04:12 PM] jcheung#0000 There's that answered [11-Apr-25 04:32 PM] optimizedfunction#0000 that is _very_ impressive {Reactions} 😊 [11-Apr-25 07:45 PM] zenwhisper#0000 I'm still working on the RSH, SP, & TSH (gold starred above). It's going faster since I finished the A-FABS and the PSH, but it's so very slow. [11-Apr-25 07:48 PM] jcheung#0000 you mentioned you wanted to get from ANT to BEN first then out to the rim? [11-Apr-25 07:48 PM] zenwhisper#0000 yup [11-Apr-25 07:49 PM] jcheung#0000 how many waypoints will that take you? [11-Apr-25 07:52 PM] zenwhisper#0000 Core to rim is some untold billions to gateway it. Honestly MOR to HUB is 23 jumps and no one will want to gateway that unless there is an amazing material dropped in the rim [11-Apr-25 07:54 PM] zenwhisper#0000 So, I'd be happy to get in on the ground floor of getting the core 4 crosslinked. [11-Apr-25 08:40 PM] evov#0000 I'm in a fairly similar boat of producing / holding onto 1 full gate worth of mats. Their deployment has taken much longer than expected though. So I have since stopped production of all those things. [14-Apr-25 12:37 AM] spermatozoon_saloon#0000 Are you deadset on building out all MAT's yourself? I've got quite the SP production line going at approx +525/d and could supply you wholesale, if you wanted to talk price [15-Apr-25 11:05 AM] zenwhisper#0000 At this point its more of needing a goal than getting to the total. {Reactions} 👌 [15-Apr-25 12:08 PM] zenwhisper#0000 Do cash contributions need to be in AIC? [15-Apr-25 12:43 PM] .urpalhal#0000 no? [15-Apr-25 01:43 PM] jcheung#0000 No [15-Apr-25 01:44 PM] jcheung#0000 He hits multiple CXs [15-Apr-25 04:34 PM] archielvahr#0000 Any currency is fine, I always shop for the best deal 😎 [26-Apr-25 05:10 PM] .urpalhal#0000 I can do some ATA [26-Apr-25 10:14 PM] archielvahr#0000 awesome 😄 [29-Apr-25 12:27 AM] spermatozoon_saloon#0000 Does anyone know who to contact for either of the MOR or HRT gates? I've got a trenchcoat full of solar panels to sell [29-Apr-25 02:15 AM] evov#0000 I know the feeling. {Attachments} https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1293249484418977852/1366674134129578004/image.png?ex=681519b9&is=6813c839&hm=e8a0570257dd5191be03091f8fed22fe9e9e150fb6e614bb96042927ee63fd38& [29-Apr-25 02:15 AM] evov#0000 I basically built a full gate ages ago and have just been sitting on the components waiting haha {Reactions} 😆 [29-Apr-25 05:26 PM] spermatozoon_saloon#0000 Where are you putting your gate? Please don't call it the lolita express {Reactions} 🌈 ❤️ 🍉 [29-Apr-25 06:59 PM] pagy1234#0000 pretty sure EvoV's gate is from IA-151 -> Antares 1 [30-Apr-25 12:57 AM] evov#0000 Might be at IA-158... since that will allow 5k5k ships to travel between ANT and HRT from that location. [30-Apr-25 12:57 AM] evov#0000 Ultimately, any gates are useless on their own. The important thing is the network. {Reactions} 🌈 ============================================================== Exported 1,725 message(s) ==============================================================